Scuttlebutt Website SCUTTLEBUTT
SAILING NEWS
ForumIndex CLASSIFIED ADS Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG IN         

Forum Index: .: Dock Talk:
Definition of Circumnavigation or similar
Team McLube

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All


cowabunga
**

May 12, 2010, 7:23 AM

Post #41 of 73 (127508 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
I asked the WSSRC. They won't comment on Watson's round the world trip,


...

Jessica Watson sailed more then 21.600 nm,


...


Even Jesse Martin's calculated distance is questionable. He took the Azores as turning point. He started from Melbourne (more to the south then Sydney) so his calculated distance is close to the required 21.600 nm, but as far as I can see it is still not far enough (86 nm short). The fact that he sailed over 2 antipodean points is not relevant as far as the WSSRC rules are concerned. The antipodeal point for Melbourne is in the middle of the ocean and the WSSRC rules require a turning point "on one single island".

.


Right

I meant ask the WSSRC about the other trips not Watson's. They were never going to ratify this trip - however they are still the body the sets the rules and if you want to compare apples with apples then it is as good a set of rules as any. Their round the world voyage rules are less stringent that true circumnavigation rules.

Otherwise you would end up having anybody making claims with no recourse.

Secondly the question is she did not actually sail 21 600nm point to point GC distance. That is the whole point. She needed to go further north (not south) above the equator to meet the distance requirement.

Regarding Jesse - you say he didn;t sail 21 600nm? If you pass over the antipodal points you must have sailed more than 21 600nm points, that being the shortest distance between antipodal points.

I understand there was some controversy over using a point in the ocean, however the fact remains if that was the point used then the distance must have been much greater than 21 600 nm. In fact even a quick glance on a suitable projection of the route shows you that Jesse sailed a much longer track than did Watson.

The rules do not need changing. In fact it makes a mockery of "Round The World" to be able to sail less than the distance around the earth and call it round the world.

Might as well go for a short stroll around the south pole and say you have walked around the world.


cowabunga
**

May 12, 2010, 7:28 AM

Post #42 of 73 (127507 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
They seem reasonable. So far nobody has any doubt about that. You would be the first.



Actually many people doubt it. The official website is very vague on whether their claim is point to point distances or actual sailing miles. There have been numerous people doubt the veracity.

In fact it is very easy to calculate, as the turning points are known. It is less than 21 600nm and it is reasonable to assume the reason why the Watson team doesn't frankly answer the question on whether their quoted distance is point to point or actual sailed miles is because they know full well it isn't point to point distance.


The Publisher
*****


May 12, 2010, 7:49 AM

Post #43 of 73 (127504 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cowabunga] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Scuttlebutt 3088

LIES, DAMN LIES, AND PR SPIN
By Bob Fisher, (preeminent) yachting journalist
I stand in awe at the achievement of Jessica Watson. That one so young has
had the fortitude to withstand the elements of the oceans alone and unaided
for the 200 plus-day duration of a voyage through some of the most hostile
waters on the planet, should be more than enough to warrant our appreciation
of her seamanship and raw guts. This is no easy voyage. It is one whose
demands would leave the majority of us carefully looking the other way and
making excuses as we exited stage left.

It has been a truly wondrous performance by this Australian teenager, who
will sail into Sydney Harbour (on Saturday, May 15) to complete her loop. It
has been a sailing performance par excellence, one of which she can be
justifiably proud and we should applaud it for what it is, and not for what
it is not.

It might seem at this time of rejoicing, harsh to point out that Jessica has
not sailed a course that is approved by the World Sailing Speed Record
Council, the international body that approves world records, as it did in
the case of Jesse Martin.

Rules must be observed in sporting challenges and there are few greater than
the circumnavigation of the globe under sail, let alone as an unaided
single-hander. Jesse did and sailed more than the required 21,600 miles,
but, under the WSSR rules, Jessica has not. She cannot therefore claim to
have beaten Jesse's record (as youngest person to non-stop circumnavigate
the globe solo), as her publicist insists.

There never has been a better example of the vast difference between fact
and public relations perspective than this. It is an almost unfathomable
chasm. On the one hand, the facts are indisputable, while on the other those
facts interfere with the public relations objective.

Distortion is the name of the game, and all in pursuit of large swathes of
cash. There are concerns that truth is being sacrificed on the altar of
Mammon by the actions of Andrew Fraser of 5 Oceans Media.

One outstanding example is that while there is extensive questioning of the
performance claims across the broad spectrum of the media, there is a total
absence of these from any of News Limited's outlets - print or television -
perhaps because the Murdoch empire has a reported A$700,000 investment in
her exclusive story. -- Sail World, read on: http://tinyurl.com/28l2kp2


The Publisher
*****


May 12, 2010, 7:50 AM

Post #44 of 73 (127503 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Scuttlebutt 3089

* From Chris Welsh, Ragtime:
I'd like to see how many people throwing criticism at Jessica have covered
5,000 miles, much less 20,000. I've done 20,000+, and I respect anyone doing
20,000+ miles and would be loath to question their accomplishment.


* From Ian Duff:
While Bob Fisher has it all over me in journalistic acumen, he might want to
look at the facts, and not be beholden to some artificial sanctioning body,
one that doesn't even apply to this superb feat of seamanship.

The WSSRC (World Sailing Speed Record Council) no longer awards records for
oldest or youngest sailor to achieve one of their courses, so why should
Miss Watson bother with their rules? She has circumnavigated our planet,
singlehanded, without stops. She has crossed the equator, and every line of
longitude. She even did it in a "green" manner, doing so very efficiently,
in fewer miles than the WSSRC deems necessary. Her age (or lack) merely
makes the feat all the more remarkable. Her story, reported frequently by
her online, makes for reading every bit as good as the reporting offered by
Mr Fisher.

I will be so bold as to suggest to Mr Fisher, please keep up your
journalistic excellence, but pay attention to the facts, and not those with
perhaps undue influence.

=> Curmudgeon’s Comment: While the accomplishment of 16 year old Jessica
Watson is being universally applauded, her PR team seems to be mudding up
the waters. According to a story on the Sail World website, the problem has
to do with how her team said they would follow the rules of the World
Sailing Speed Record Council (WSSRC) but then haven't (her initial
fundraising was based on this premise). Then the PR team later said that
they did not care about the WSSRC rules, since the council no longer
administers ‘youngest and oldest’ records. However, the PR team still has
inflated her distance sailed, and this is the only sticking point.

They want to claim that Jessica is beating Jesse Martin’s record of being
the youngest to sail non-stop solo around the world, but Jesse was governed
by the route and distance requirements of the WSSRC. Jessica is sailing a
shorter route than what the WSSRC prescribes, which makes the comparison
‘awkward.’ Arguments like this are probably why the WSSRC was founded. Will
the Guinness Book of World Records care about any of these details? Probably
not as they will welcome the chance to be the new record authority. Here is
the Sail World story: http://tinyurl.com/2g4p4o5


cowabunga
**

May 12, 2010, 8:05 AM

Post #45 of 73 (127500 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
Scuttlebutt 3089

* From Chris Welsh, Ragtime:
I'd like to see how many people throwing criticism at Jessica have covered
5,000 miles, much less 20,000. I've done 20,000+, and I respect anyone doing
20,000+ miles and would be loath to question their accomplishment.


* From Ian Duff:
While Bob Fisher has it all over me in journalistic acumen, he might want to
look at the facts, and not be beholden to some artificial sanctioning body,
one that doesn't even apply to this superb feat of seamanship.

The WSSRC (World Sailing Speed Record Council) no longer awards records for
oldest or youngest sailor to achieve one of their courses, so why should
Miss Watson bother with their rules? She has circumnavigated our planet,
singlehanded, without stops. She has crossed the equator, and every line of
longitude. She even did it in a "green" manner, doing so very efficiently,
in fewer miles than the WSSRC deems necessary. Her age (or lack) merely
makes the feat all the more remarkable. Her story, reported frequently by
her online, makes for reading every bit as good as the reporting offered by
Mr Fisher.

I will be so bold as to suggest to Mr Fisher, please keep up your
journalistic excellence, but pay attention to the facts, and not those with
perhaps undue influence.







The problem I have is the notion you need to have sailed around the world to know what around the world means.

This is a silly argument. The problem is that the PR team are claiming things that aren't true. It matters not that she did something great, is young etc. You still can't claim something you haven't actually done. The fact I or somebody else hasn't done it doesn't mean they can still claim it either.

Nobody is saying it was an easy journey, or that she hasn't done a remarkable thing. They are simply saying she didn't satisfy the "traditional" round the world rules. These rules have been the ones used for decades and are generally overseen by the WSSRC.

Really the solution is for the WSSRC to ratify round the world trips for under 18's, but (as they do now) no longer have a dedicated record for youngest.

So like now there is no such record, but at least they could officiate on whether it was a round the world trip or not.





texasjump
**

May 12, 2010, 8:26 AM

Post #46 of 73 (127498 views)
Shortcut
Re: [CKSailor] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
The WSSCR rule states: "A vessel starting from any point where the direct orthodromic distance is too short shall pass one single island or other fixed point on a required side so as to lengthen his orthodromic track to the minimum distance." Thus, if she passed any island or land mass that lengthened the great circle sailing route between any of the six points you used in your calculations, you would need to add those points and recalculate.



To any and all Jessica Watson detractors, I have yet to see a response to this statement made by CKSailor. It seems like as long as deviations from the point to point course can be verified, that the lengthening of the track is within the WSSCR rules. Could you please explain this portion of the rules?

To Steve, I would say you need to step back from the computer and chill out. Reading your response to ACS, I could feel your spittle fly off my monitor.





ACS
**

May 12, 2010, 4:21 PM

Post #47 of 73 (127475 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cowabunga] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I don't think there is any doubt: It is clear that the point to point distance according to WSSRC rules is too short. (16.285 nm).
It is also clear that the actually sailed distance is in between 22.000 and 23.000 nm. The Sail-World article also accepts that as a fact.

One point I am trying to make is this:

The discussion wether you sail 21.600 nm from point to point, or sail 22.000 nm according to a GPS-log is rather academic. Especially if you cross all meridians and the equator in both cases. It is about the same heroic prestation! Jessica's voyage might not be a WSSRC recognized RTW trip. That's all and maybe she could have done better, but that is a matter of organisation, not of sailing.

Another point is this.

The WSSRC rules are not clear. How on earth can Kay Cottee and Jon Sanders be listed as record holding circumnavigators, if their point to point distances are resp. 18.005 nm and 18.220 nm.

One might think that Jessica Watson looked at the route of the all time hero Kay Cottee and her recognized WSSRC-compliant route, and thought: That is the way I am going to do it. It probably never crossed her mind that Cottee's route IS NOT ACCORDING to WSSRC rules.

About your remark on Jesse Martin and sailing over 2 antipodeon points: Ofcouse that is a true circumnavigation and by definition it is the right Great Circle distance. But the WSSRC does not accept any turning points that are not fixed to land. As far as the WSSRC rules are concerned he has never been there and the distance does not count.


steveold
***

May 12, 2010, 6:16 PM

Post #48 of 73 (127472 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

ACS
I repeat, you are full of it!!!
You wrote......"But the WSSRC does not accept any turning points that are not fixed to land."
What utter gargage!
Stop dreaming and get your facts right.
If an intended attempt at a Circumnavigation requires a turning point that is on land, then the voyage
must be amended to commence and finish at a point where its Antipodal Point is surrounded by navigable water!


waiknot
****

May 12, 2010, 6:30 PM

Post #49 of 73 (127470 views)
Shortcut
Re: [steveold] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

You know this debate is getting a bit out of hand.

Jessica Watson's has achieved an amazing journey.
If Jessica's wished to compare it with any previous records that would have required working with the sanctioning body/bodies.

Jessica's team have chosen not to do this and then have the gall to compare and claim they have bettered these records.

My Score Card:
Jessica Watson 10 out of 10
Jessica Watson's Marketing/PR Team negative 10 out of 10





ACS
**

May 13, 2010, 12:41 AM

Post #50 of 73 (127459 views)
Shortcut
Re: [steveold] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Steve,
These are the facts (WSSRC rules):

26. RECORD COURSES
General
Only fixed points of land, fixed navigational beacons or other charted objects fixed to the land or seabed can be used as reference points though they need not necessarily be sighted.


Jesse Martin's antipodal points do not comply to this, so they are useless for the point to point calculation of the distance. But don't shout to me, I did not make the rules, I think they suck.

Are you finished calculating Kay Cottee's distance?

Did you know Joshua Slocum did not sail around the world either? The old chap forgot about the WSSRC rule that start and finish should be the same place. He started in Boston and finished in Newport.
Again: the WSSRC rules suck, so why bother using them?


cowabunga
**

May 13, 2010, 1:48 AM

Post #51 of 73 (127513 views)
Shortcut
Re: [texasjump] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To

In Reply To
The WSSCR rule states: "A vessel starting from any point where the direct orthodromic distance is too short shall pass one single island or other fixed point on a required side so as to lengthen his orthodromic track to the minimum distance." Thus, if she passed any island or land mass that lengthened the great circle sailing route between any of the six points you used in your calculations, you would need to add those points and recalculate.



To any and all Jessica Watson detractors, I have yet to see a response to this statement made by CKSailor. It seems like as long as deviations from the point to point course can be verified, that the lengthening of the track is within the WSSCR rules. Could you please explain this portion of the rules?
.


That is true, from memory without scrutinising the rules you can only do this once per leg??

Anyway the point is if this was done then the points were not publicised. It is really up to Fraser to show the correct GC distances (point etc)


I'd also like to say this is not a Jessica Watson Detractor thing. It is simply not letting fibs be told by PR people for money.


cowabunga
**

May 13, 2010, 1:55 AM

Post #52 of 73 (127513 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To

The discussion wether you sail 21.600 nm from point to point, or sail 22.000 nm according to a GPS-log is rather academic. Especially if you cross all meridians and the equator in both cases. It is about the same heroic prestation! Jessica's voyage might not be a WSSRC recognized RTW trip. That's all and maybe she could have done better, but that is a matter of organisation, not of sailing.



I agree entirely. However sailing is lot about organisation and preparation. Getting your stuff right before you leave is half the job.



In Reply To
Another point is this.

The WSSRC rules are not clear. How on earth can Kay Cottee and Jon Sanders be listed as record holding circumnavigators, if their point to point distances are resp. 18.005 nm and 18.220 nm.

One might think that Jessica Watson looked at the route of the all time hero Kay Cottee and her recognized WSSRC-compliant route, and thought: That is the way I am going to do it. It probably never crossed her mind that Cottee's route IS NOT ACCORDING to WSSRC rules.


Well that would be a plainly silly thing to do. Also she isn't doing the exact same route. So at some stage the distance must have been calculated.

There are upteen programmes out there that will do all this for you at the press of a button, on your computer before you leave.

If her management didn't do something as easy and surely obvious as this then they are simply not very good at their job.


texasjump
**

May 13, 2010, 5:35 AM

Post #53 of 73 (127493 views)
Shortcut
Re: [cowabunga] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
I'd also like to say this is not a Jessica Watson Detractor thing. It is simply not letting fibs be told by PR people for money.



You are absolutely correct and I apologize for the wording. After hitting the "POST REPLY" I realized that it came out abit different from what I meant. In regards to Jessica Watson, I think she has done an amazing sail and wish her all the best. Thank you Cowabunga for pointing that out and keeping me straight. In truth I should have clarified it to refer to those refuting claims made by Jessica's PR team and not her personally. Personal attacks on any forum do nothing but stir up the HORNETS and serves no real purpose.

I will be eager to watch Jessica sail into Sydney harbor. Following her return I hope that her team does their due diligence and present all the information needed to justify any claims they intend to make about her amazing voyage.


The Publisher
*****


May 13, 2010, 9:33 AM

Post #54 of 73 (127484 views)
Shortcut
Re: [texasjump] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Scuttlebutt 3090

THE WETASS CHRONICLES: ADVENTURE LOST
By Tim Zimmermann, Sailing World

When Jessica Watson set out from Sydney, Australia last October to sail non-stop around the world, solo and unassisted, I was - how shall I put this? - extremely skeptical. It wasn't her age - just 16 - so much as her inexperience, though that is age related. It didn't help that she collided with a freighter before the start. I thought her parents were idiots.

Mostly, though, it was my perception of solo, Round-the-World (RTW), sailing as an epic, dangerous, and lonely challenge, requiring superhuman discipline, an ability to survive on little sleep, and the capability to fix, invent and jury-rig your way around the globe. I got that perception from devouring the RTW sailing literature from the early days: Robin-Knox Johnston, Bernard Moitessier, Miles Smeeton, and many others. Also, from following the inspired craziness of the Vendee Globe. This canon elevates solo, RTW sailing to world-class adventure, matching anything you can find in mountaineering or exploration.

But now that Jessica is cruising serenely toward Sydney on her S&S 34 Ella's Pink Lady, about to conclude her voyage successfully and become a marketing superstar, I realize that it's time to update my perception.

I don't want to take too much away from her accomplishment. Any solo, RTW voyage is a big deal, and I sincerely doubt I would have fared as well. She was knocked down multiple times, slugged her way through gales and headwinds, and at least early in the voyage sometimes appeared on the verge of tears.

But after following her voyage I was struck by how much the nature of this sort of adventure has completely changed. It just doesn't feel very "solo" or "unassisted" anymore, and that takes the blood and guts out of it. Think of all the time Jessica spent on the sat phone, talking to her family and shore team. Problem with the autopilot or generator? Get on the horn with the manufacturer for step-by-by step repair instructions. Feeling lonely and blue? Call up your Mum for a chat and some bucking up. Need an emotional lift? Read the comments on your blog.

And then there is weather. Without doubt, the most challenging element of early voyages was a nearly complete inability to know what weather lay ahead in time to do anything about it. So part of the deal was having the snot knocked out of you on a regular basis. In the Southern Ocean, you got the snot AND the crap knocked out of you, and that was why it was such a hoary, intimidating place. -- Read on: http://tinyurl.com/25m56jl


The Publisher
*****


May 13, 2010, 9:33 AM

Post #55 of 73 (127483 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Scuttlebutt 3091

* From Richard Clark:
Sorry Tim Zimmermann and all the arm chair critics and cynics out there, Jessica Watson is to be totally applauded, forget her PR dweebs and shore teams. Simply look at her achievement. The S&S 34 has always been my most fav yacht, a true blue water classic. She is on her way home. We so dump on the youth of today, it's time to shut our chatter and stand in awe. I wish the wind treat her well and the ocean calm to get her home.


* From John Arndt:
I'm thinking the World Sailing Speed Record council ought to open some categories for people who sail around the world but don't tell anyone. Somehow going solo around the world with 'outside assistance' seems like a Barry Bonds home run record. Some of the best 'heroes' are those who anchor out unnoticed and you discover, as they wander up from the dinghy dock, they've just completed 30,000 miles for their own personal challenge or enjoyment. Real gems are often hard to find.


The Publisher
*****


May 13, 2010, 5:28 PM

Post #56 of 73 (127464 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Scuttlebutt 3092

* From Brian Hancock:
I agree 100% with Richard Clark (in Scuttlebutt 3091). If you have sailed around the world you have a certain perspective on what she has/ will accomplish when she ties the loop this weekend. It's a brutal experience and a monumental achievement. Maybe she has had a few DVD's to watch but she had been out there over 200 days, all alone, dealing with whatever the wind gods have thrown her way. Her story is without a doubt the most inspirational to come out in the last half century and I hope that it inspires not only sailors, but everyone to strive high and go for the gold. I stand in awe.


* From Giancarlo Basile:
I agree with Tim Zimmermann about what he thinks of the Jessica Watson's solo circumnavigation: today's improvements in communications are a big help, so it is not exactly true that her sailing was unassisted, as it really was for Robin-Knox Johnston, Bernard Moitessier, etc.

Nevertheless, Jessica Watson's performance is still great: almost seven months of solo sailing, crossing the oceans one after the other in the roaring forties and the furious fifties, being severely knocked down more than once and succesfully closing the circle makes me think that Jessica Watson deserves the highest consideration as a first class sailor.


The Publisher
*****


May 13, 2010, 5:29 PM

Post #57 of 73 (127463 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From Pip Sawyer, Fremantle, Australia:
I read the letter posted earlier this week suggesting it is easier to sail around the world now with good communications. Well yes, I would have to agree that the mental comfort of being able to seek help for problems, weather routing and contact with loved ones would be a huge plus for solo sailors. However, I am not sure I would willingly do it even then - I love shorthanded sailing but solo is a person too short and that is not to do with sharing a physical load but because I do not have sufficient control of my imagination.

But is the journey itself easier and have we diminished all adventures? I would like to ask whether anyone thinks that it is now actually easier to climb Everest now we use oxygen, Gore-Tex clothing and similar access to communications. I would prefer to say that it is now possible for more of us to attempt it. The core of each experience is still there - climbing or sailing - conquering fear and tiredness, keeping going at all costs, testing your mind and body, truly and deeply savouring moments of exhilaration.

Modern solo circumnavigations benefit immeasurably from technology but the actual task still has to be achieved by a human being using their mind and body. The determination, the courage to go and the strength to manage the physical problems and mental demons come from within. Because we can now share in someone else’s adventure so easily, we may have ceased to appreciate that it, even in 2010, real adventures are still just that and remain essentially personal. The journey might be less life threatening, but I wouldn’t say that it was less scary or easier.


From Jeroen van der Beek:
You know this debate is getting a bit out of hand. Jessica Watson's has achieved an amazing journey. If Jessica wished to compare it with any previous records, that would have required working with the sanctioning body/bodies. Jessica's (support) team has chosen not to do this and then have the gall to compare and claim they have bettered these records.

My Score Card:
Jessica Watson 10 out of 10
Jessica Watson's Marketing/PR Team negative 10 out of 10


From Chris Boome, San Francisco:
As Jessica approaches her around the world (official or not) sail, I think it is an accomplishment that should be applauded. As a parent, I would be ecstatic if one of my children would have even aspired to do a trip like this. I don't know or care about her "record", those usually have some aspect of trying to go fast. Jessica's trip seemed to be routed for safety (which is what I would want for my child).

Although this last bit of staging to arrive on Saturday does seem a bit much, all of us in sailing have benefited from the recent increase in sponsorship with the results being better regattas and more opportunities. Jessica's "people" certainly seem to be very astute at what they do. I also never got the feeling that she was very alone out there, with all the communications devices, weekly TV interviews etc, but of course, in the end she did all the sailing, boat maintenance etc.

To me the most absolutely wonderful aspect of this adventure was Jessica's love of sailing in the ocean. Although only 16, she did a great job communicating her love of being at sea. That passion transcends all age groups. With all the problems in the world, it's great to see someone living their dream.


CKSailor
**

May 14, 2010, 12:00 PM

Post #58 of 73 (127368 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Tim,

I can't imagine anyone disputing the fundamental factuality of your "Adventure Lost" Chronicle--without a doubt the technilogical advantages greatly reduce the risks of weather, navigation, vessel traffic, maintenance/repair and perhaps more than anything, the psychological issues of sailing solo. But having said that, I must say, your article really should be titled "The Horse'sAss Chronicles...."

Let me explain: you accurately stated: "I don't want to take too much away from her accomplishment." But what you obviously want, and clearly accomplish is "to take something away from her accomplishment." Why would you want to do that? Wouldn't only a horse's ass want to do that? Jessica is about to have her well-deserved parade, and you seem intent on doing a rain dance. Your comments would be just as valid, and probably more objectively accepted if you just waited till sometime after Jessica's accomplishments have subsided from the public eye. Or instead of being published too early, perhaps they are too late. Didn't Dee Caffari (and Ellen MacArthur) obtain radio advice from their shore-team? Did you bemoan the diminished accomplishment and the adventure lost by either of them? Why are you only now struck by how much the nature of this sort of adventure has completely changed. OK, I can accept that you just maybe didn't think about it then. But I think you should think about this now: Your article was ill-timed and extremely inconsiderate. Certainly if you've had your butt wetted often enough and long enough sailing the ocean, you should know better than to try to detract in any way from Ms. Watson's wonderful accomplishment.


Max
**

May 16, 2010, 4:05 PM

Post #59 of 73 (127170 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Without commenting on the specific waypoints of Slocum's voyage, but - absent sailing the northwest passage or something similar - a northern hemisphere departure pretty much guarantees passing an antipodal point, while a southern hemisphere departure doesn't - the trite point here is that you can't claim a circumnavigation when (as commented) you just sail around one end of the globe.

That cannot be seen as some sort of oversight or technicality, both for that reason and also given that this was a very carefully planned route - it's just a shame that, for whatever reason, the route patently did not comply. It doesn't matter - pace Mr Baillieu and co - that it was an "impressive achievement" - so would climbing part-way up Everest or running part of a marathon, but that is not the claim being made, repeatedly, here.


waiknot
****

May 16, 2010, 6:40 PM

Post #60 of 73 (127153 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Nicely said Max,

I'm sure Will Baillieu would be outraged if I claimed Americas Cup Hero status for almost sailing in a Americas Cup regatta. After all I have been on the water in a spectator capacity and have sailed a few non Americas Cup races in my time.

Well it does appear that close enough is good enough according to some comments here!!!





steveold
***

May 16, 2010, 8:41 PM

Post #61 of 73 (127114 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

How many "Buttheads" watched the footage of THE ARRIVAL?
There was Jessica staggering ashore into the waiting arms etc etc and having to be
propped up by her parents and assisted to walk the Pink Carpet, because, according
to the "expert" commentators, (those who host morning TV shows and write for women's
tabloids) she was afflicted by something described as "Sea Legs"

Yet minutes earlier, we saw Jessica happily moving around the boat, completely unassisted
and waving to the crowds and cameras with both hands.

Staged??
You be the judge.

Remember Jesse Martin's arrival in Melbourne?
He jumped the rail on to the dock and somehow managed to stand, unassisted
and without toppling over.
Same with Kay Cottee.

And now we have the bizarre situation of one of her sponsors having the gall to criticise
her for sailing way too far north in order to delay her entrance through Sydney Heads.
See...http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sponsor-slams-orchestrated-voyage-20100515-v5do.html

Quite acceptable, says her precious mouthpiece Andrew Fraser, she was only resting,
despite the fact she'd been virtually hove-to off Sydney for the last three days!


ACS
**

May 17, 2010, 1:53 AM

Post #62 of 73 (127029 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Not so nicely said Max

The point I am trying to make, is that the WSSRC rules suck. So why should we judge Jessica Watsons achievement by those rules?

Nobody doubts wether other RTW sailor followed the WSRC rules. Yet Jon Sanders, Kay Cottee, and Joshua Slocum DID NOT sail around the world according to those rules. (and they are listed as official recordholders on the WSSRC website). Ken Gourlay argued with the WSSRC before he left for his circumnavigation about his route, but he found out they were completely incompetent. He followed his own route, which is too short according to the WSSRC rules, but the route the WSSRC suggested to him WAS EVEN SHORTER.

Jessica Watson left and finished at the same point, crossed all meredians and the equator and sailed more then 21.600 nm. The points she rounded did not comply with WSSRC rules. That's all. Her achievement can very well be compared to the circumnavigations of Kay Cottee, Jon Sanders and Ken Gourlay.

A 16 year old girl sailed 23.000 nm around the world in pink little yacht. If people like you won't accept that, I can only think of the following reasons:
It's a girl
She is 16 year old
Her yacht is pink

It just does not fit your picture of RTW sailors. (Middle aged strong men with beards and tattoos ??)

She is not a hero as she pointed out to the Australian PM. Maybe that is the biggest problem for all the critics. She is no hero. She said anyone can do it. There goes the romance and the heroism. You just have to put your mind to it and work hard. In other words: you can do it, but you don't. You cannot put your mind to it and you can't work hard enough. Instead you try to find ways to ridicule her effort.

This is best demonstrated a few posts before: The guy that first said it was completely irresponsible for a 16 yr old girl to sail around the world, and when she did it without a scratch he sayd that it was an easy ride with sattelitephones and all. That is just being negative one way or the other. Trying to find the arguments afterwards. Sad.

Jessica Watson proves that the (sailing) world no longer belongs exclusively to tough guys that can shout around the harbour about their heroic achievements. As a father of 3 daughters I applaud that. She unmasked the tough sailors and I can understand why that is a thread to them. But all off you look a bit ridiculous being left behind by a 16 year old girl with a pink little boat. She pulled a major stunt. (and she did a lot of good for our sport, since already a lot of young people are signing in for sailing courses)


Max
**

May 17, 2010, 2:40 AM

Post #63 of 73 (127018 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Nothing to do with the colour of the boat, the gender of the skipper or her age or lack of hairiness - but thanks for the ad hominem response.

There's no mystery (or anything that particularly "sucks") about requiring antipodal points. A voyage from one antipodal point to the other is, well, a circumnavigation - anything else is just a long (and, sure, arduous and even impressive) sail. The definition suggested here doesn't guarantee a circumnavigation, particularly when the point of departure is a southern hemisphere port. And the much quoted "23,000 miles" - assuming that that's accurate - is irrelevant - as others have pointed out, one can rack up miles without getting around the world. Slocum's account had him doing 46,000 and Ellen McArthur - a genuinely impressive sailor with navigational and sailing skills to burn - did 27,354.

Watson and/or her advisors made a deliberate decision not to undertake a genuine circumnavigation - who knows why, although it's easy to see why the PR effort to ignore or misrepresent that now - and that's an end to it.


ACS
**

May 17, 2010, 3:05 AM

Post #64 of 73 (127009 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Max, please study the rules again. Antipodal points are NOT required. In fact it is almost impossible to sail around antipodal points that comply to the WSSRC rule that rounding points should be attached to land or seabed. The Vendee Globe route is NOT over 2 antipodal points.
Jesse Martin sailed over the antipodal point of Melbourne, but since that point is somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic and therefore not accepted by the WSSRC, he had to round the Azores as well.

You are absolutely right that requiring antipodal points does not suck and would be the best rule to think of. But the WSSRC thinks otherwise and that sucks. They just have to accept that the right route (or distance) in modern day sailing can be proven with GPS tracking or otherwise.

The Vendee Globe and the Volvo Oceanrace do the same with icegates. They don't really float around in the Southern Ocean, but they can check easily wether a competitor rounded them the right way.


waiknot
****

May 17, 2010, 3:06 AM

Post #65 of 73 (127008 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

ACS
Why do you feel the need to undermine Jessica Watson's fantastic achievement by pretending she has achieved something she hasn't?

Jessica has achieved something fantastic that does not need to be exaggerated into something she has not.

All you and her marketing people are doing is distracting attention away from her real achievement.


Max
**

May 17, 2010, 3:33 AM

Post #66 of 73 (126998 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The WSSRC rule refers to "shortest orthodromic track of the vessel must be at least 21,600 nautical miles in length calculated based on a 'perfect sphere'". The "track" is the route, not distance covered - and so approximates a great circle/antipodal route.

This is nothing much new - see the similarly sympathetic coverage of the American teenager Zac Sutherland last year - and so it remains that:

i) the WSSRC rule describes a minimum approximate RTW route;

ii) this didn't comply with that route - so, however impressive we rate the accomplishment of sailing so far, it's a bit like a 1500m record that didn't round the corners; but

iii) the PR comment has consistently been that this is a technical problem and that Watson would count as a RTW record, if only WSSRC still did an age record.

This last is just false and, whatever one thinks of the accomplishment, does detract from it. Beyond that - and leaving aside the question of whether age records are a good or bad thing - the point of this sort of venture is lost if - and I haven't seen a good explanation yet - the sailor(s) and/or advisor(s) don't play it straight.

Thanks for the exchange, though.


ACS
**

May 17, 2010, 5:30 AM

Post #67 of 73 (126966 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

You wrote earlier: climbing part-way up Everest or running part of a marathon.
As you may know there are several routes to the top of the Mt Everest. One more difficult then the other. It is the same with sailing around the world. I never heard of anybody saying that the Mt Everest was not climbed because the route to the top was too easy, or easier then a route someone else took.

Fact is Jessica Watson sailed more then 21.600 nm, which is the distance of a great circle.

Another fact is that the rules are not consequently applied, since the circumnavigations of Jon Sanders, Kay Cottee, etc. are recognized, but not compliant with the WSSRC rules. At least agree with me on that issue Smile

As far as Jessica's advisors are concerned: I think they did an outstanding job when it comes to preparation, planning and the choice of the yacht. The technical part of the voyage. I am not interested in the PR thing. Maybe that job was not so good. On the other hand: Nobody payed attention in the beginning, probably because the focus was on wether a 16 year old girl should be allowed to sail around the world or not. Now - afterwards - her words are looked at as if she was a politician.

This thread is about the definition of circumnavigation. Obviously the definition is not clear and applied inconsequently. Time for a new definition and I think it would be best to use the 2 antipodal points again, as Chichester did. But the WSSRC has to accept that those points are somewhere in the water of an ocean and they can only be checked with a GPS tracking system.


steveold
***

May 17, 2010, 3:43 PM

Post #68 of 73 (126865 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

ACS.
Why do keep on insisting that Ms Watson sailed more than 21,600 NM?
Would you care to prove that?
We only have her spokesman's highly dubious claim on that.
Clearly her route chart is way less than that, and ONLY the nominated waypoints
can be taken into account.
And why does her spokesman and Jessica herself persist in claiming the WRRSC does not recognize under 18, when they have clearly stated they no longer recognize ANY age?


ACS
**

May 17, 2010, 4:53 PM

Post #69 of 73 (126851 views)
Shortcut
Re: [steveold] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Hi Steve,

No, I can't prove that. I just believe it. Just as I believe all the other RTW sailors.
No, her route was not long enough when you look at the waypoints. I agree, but I don't think it really matters.
I could not care less about what Jessica or her spokesman has to say about WSSRC-records. I think the WSSRC rules are outdated, wrong and applied at random.


Max
**

May 18, 2010, 3:51 AM

Post #70 of 73 (126784 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Thanks, but the same point remains: the shortest orthodromic measurement of Watson's route is far less than 21,600 NM - Sailworld (http://www.sail-world.com/CruisingAus/Jessica-Watson:--Keeping-the-Record-Straight/69108) has helpfully calculated it at 18,582, without contradiction from Watson's PR people. Adding on miles, without more, doesn't make any difference. See, by contrast, Abby Sunderland's rather different-looking route at http://www.stevezervos.com/JESSMAP.jpg.

I think best summed up - and far more authoritatively - by Dee Caffari (full RTW, the hard (westerly) way in 2006) "You can't take away what she's just done ... but the stringent rules to make a circumnavigation are there for a reason, so that we know the framework for it". Can this end now?


ACS
**

May 18, 2010, 6:13 AM

Post #71 of 73 (126776 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Sail_world made the wrong calculation. According to WSSRC-rules Jessica sailed only 16,286 nm. Not 18,582 nm as Sail-World says. Sail-World calculated the route over waypoints like Cape Horn and Cape Agulhas. Both are at the wrong side of the track, and cannot be rounded (except via the Barentsz- and Beringsea), which makes them irrelevant as far as the rules are concerned. In fact Sail-World makes exactly the same mistake as Jessica Watson did. They probably used a school atlas with Mercator projection. They certainly did not ask an australian expert on navigation, as they claim. (But hey, they also used a quote from Jon Reed (WSSRC) about Zac Sundelands trip, as if it was about Jessica's trip and hastily removed it from the article when the WSSRC denied to ever have commented on Jessica Watson)

In fact the WSSRC rules assume Jessica passed Cape Agulhas more then 1,700 nm to the South (63 degrees south), which no solo sailor ever did or will do, because of the extreme weather conditions and icebergs. According to the WSSRC rules Jessica crossed almost half of the meredians at a height of 63 degrees south! Absolutely rediculous.

In reality Jessica did round Cape Horn, because she sailed from Christmas Island to Tristan da Cunha (southern Atlantic). Tristan da Cunha is a waypoint that lengthens the track, but is not calculated by Sail_World. Same for Isle Amsterdam (Indian Ocean), which was passed to the north, but not taken into account by Sail-World. If you calculate it like that, she covered 19,400 nm. Throw in an extra few islands and she might end up with 20,000 nm.

But then again you may only lengthen the distance by sailing around ONE SINGLE ISLAND. In Jessica's case that would be Christmas Island.
It's not that simple is it.

Abby Sunderland will only cover enough miles because she stopped in Cape Town. Otherwise it would also have been too short (according to the famous "rules")




cowabunga
**

Sep 20, 2010, 1:20 AM

Post #72 of 73 (123619 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To


Fact is Jessica Watson sailed more then 21.600 nm, which is the distance of a great circle.

Ahhh - no this is not a fact and is the problem. She didn't actually sail the distance. She sailed less than the shortest possible distance around a sphere the size of the earth.


cowabunga
**

Sep 20, 2010, 1:23 AM

Post #73 of 73 (123618 views)
Shortcut
Re: [ACS] Definition of Circumnavigation or similar [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
Otherwise it would also have been too short (according to the famous "rules")






yeah imagine one of those rules saying that to sail around the world you actually have to either sail around the world, or at the very least sail the same distance of going around the world - the cheek of it.


Viewing the Forums: No members and guests
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 


Search for (options) Contact Forum Forum FAQS Markup Tags Forum Rules