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Definition of Circumnavigation or similar
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Kerdasail
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Apr 10, 2010, 5:52 PM

Post #1 of 73 (165130 views)
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Can someone clarify the term for this feat that I once read? An official Circumnavigation claim can only be made by passing South of all the 5 capes on the globe and also crossing the antopidal point whereby you will have crossed the equator once?
I think I saw this at about the time Jesse Martin completed his Circumnavigation?
I don't wish to take the feat away from anyone who attempts it as I can only imagine how tough it would be based on my commercial fishing experiences at those latitudes - well done.


steveold
***

Apr 11, 2010, 8:10 PM

Post #2 of 73 (165104 views)
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Dear Kerdasail
This might help, and as for the reference to 5 capes, any PROPER circumnavigation just happens
to pass 5 capes. Purely coincidence.
Also try Googling "Define Circumnavigation".

"A true circumnavigation of the world must pass through two points antipodean to each other."
Norris McWhirter, founding editor of Guinness, 1971.

"A true circumnavigation of the world ... where the track passed over 2 points antipodean to each other ... a circumnavigation where the vessel passes through two points on the earth's surface which are diametrically opposite each other ..."
Sir Francis Chichester, Gipsy Moth Circles the World, 1967.

"A true circumnavigation of the Earth must: start and finish at the same point, traveling in one general direction, reach two antipodes, cross the equator, cross all longitudes, cover a minimum of 40,000km.."
(21,600 NM, the circumference of the world at the equator.
Explorers Web AdventureStats, 2007….

As the charts will show, Jesse Martin's voyage was a True Circumnavigation.
Jessica Watson's will not, nor will it qualify for a RTW.

Attachments: Jessica Watson route.jpg (41.7 KB)
  Jesse Martin route.jpg (65.4 KB)


The Publisher
*****


Apr 12, 2010, 1:37 PM

Post #3 of 73 (165029 views)
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From Ed Vincent:
The World Sailing Speed Record Council states:

"To sail around the World, a vessel must start from and return to the same point, must cross all meridians of longitude and must cross the Equator. It may cross some but not all meridians more than once (i.e. two roundings of Antarctica do not count). The shortest orthodromic track of the vessel must be at least 21,600 nautical miles in length calculated based on a 'perfect sphere'. In calculating this distance, it is to be assumed that the vessel will sail around Antarctica in latitude 63 degrees south. A vessel starting from any point where the direct orthodromic distance is too short shall pass one single island or other fixed point on a required side so as to lengthen his orthodromic track to the minimum distance. No starting point will be permitted more south than 45 ° south. 1 degree of longitude at 63 degrees south will be taken as 27.24NM”

Consequently, provided that Jessica Watson has sailed at least 21,600 NM, she will qualify as having truly having sailed Round The World. To do so single handed, at any age, is a remarkable achievement, whatever anyone thinks of single handed sailing.


steveold
***

Apr 12, 2010, 3:27 PM

Post #4 of 73 (165022 views)
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The key word being PROVIDED!
As Ms Watson's voyage is not being monitored by any recognised authority, and if she wishes to claim a record, the onus is on her to PROVE her claims.
The remarkability of her voyage is not in question. Quote:- "This voyage is not being sailed in accordance with the WSSR rules so the question of ratification does not arise."
John Reed
Secretary to the WSSR Council.
Quote:- John Reed, Secretary to the WSSRC, told YachtPals earlier this week: "Not only is the voyage not being monitored by the WSSRC but the route being followed DOES NOT COMPLY with the definition of 'Around the World' and bears no comparison, for example, with the achievement of Jesse Martin." It couldn't be any clearer than that. The entire reason why the WSSRC exists is so that such claims can be scrutinized before, during and after the attempts, lest everyone and their sponsors claim their own records.


CKSailor
**

Apr 13, 2010, 10:27 AM

Post #5 of 73 (164434 views)
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Hey old Steve,
Looking at the definition from the WSSRC, and at Watson's track, it seems like her route qualifies. So what specifically is it with her route that John Reed concludes as failing to qualify. She'll have crossed all longitudes, and crossed the equator when going around an island in the northern hemisphere. Did she not go far enough south? Can't tell for sure about the antipodes, but you can't see all of her track at the same time on a globe, which implies antipodial positions. So what is wrong with her route?


southernman
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Apr 13, 2010, 11:25 AM

Post #6 of 73 (164421 views)
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I believe the dispute is the total distance sailed, and that distance must be at least 21,600 NM.


CKSailor
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Apr 13, 2010, 12:16 PM

Post #7 of 73 (164411 views)
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Her route is supposedly 23,000 miles, so that shouldn't be the problem.


The Publisher
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Apr 13, 2010, 2:49 PM

Post #8 of 73 (164395 views)
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In Reply To
Her route is supposedly 23,000 miles, so that shouldn't be the problem.



That is a curious distance for her route, as Groupama 3 said their optimum route amounted to 21,760 miles and their actural routing led them to sail 28,523 miles. By starting and finishing in France, you would think Groupama 3's route has to be longer than Jessica's once you add in their mileage north of the equater.

- Craig Leweck, Scuttlebutt


CKSailor
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Apr 13, 2010, 3:14 PM

Post #9 of 73 (164391 views)
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Here's the quote from her website:
My goal is to sail solo around the world non-stop, unassisted. I have chosen a route that is a traditionally recognised path and distance for ‘around the world sailors’. As this is a Southern Hemisphere voyage the significant landmarks are the southern tips of the American and African continents, as well as some of the most challenging oceans a sailor will ever face. The entire journey is a mix of amazing experience and unique challenges.
There are a few key targets I must achieve to qualify for around the world status. The approximate distance is 23,000 nautical miles (about 38,000 kilometres). I must depart and arrive from the same port, cross all lines of longitude, cross the equator entering into the Northern Hemisphere at least once and round the southern landmarks of South America and South Africa.
I have described the journey in parts to give you an idea of my path over the coming months. You will be able to track me and Ella’s Pink Lady on this website and through my media partner ONE (Network Ten’s 24/7 sports channel).


steveold
***

Apr 13, 2010, 3:45 PM

Post #10 of 73 (164389 views)
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The information posted on the website seems to change almost on a daily basis.

"My goal is to sail solo around the world non-stop"
A few weeks ago this read "circumnavigate"

"I have chosen a route that is a traditionally recognised path and distance for ‘around the world sailors’."
If it's "traditional" then why is there no record of anyone having sailed this route?

"The approximate distance is 23,000 nautical miles (about 38,000 kilometres)"
Up until a couple of weeks ago, this read 40,000Km only, (which equals 21,000 NM).

And also up until a few weeks ago this......"Inspired in her turn by Kay Cottee, the first woman to sail solo non-stop unassisted around the world and by Jesse Martin, the youngest person to do so, Jessica Watson has set her sights on shattering Jesse’s record."
One would have thought that to shatter a record, they would need to sail an identical course, not one that is significantly shorter!


CKSailor
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Apr 13, 2010, 6:55 PM

Post #11 of 73 (164365 views)
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Steve,

I was just curious, Steve, and didn't mean to ruffle your feathers any more than they already seem to be. My question was (and is) what particular aspect of her route or trip is it that fails to meet the requirements stated by the WSSRC? I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the fact that she didn't go further south? The WSSRC states "it is to be assumed that the vessel will sail around Antarctica in latitude 63 degrees south." I'm pretty sure she never got even close to that far south (maybe no more than 56 degrees south), but that only increases the actual miles sailed. Another possibility is that it is the requirement of "The shortest orthodromic track of the vessel must be at least 21,600 nautical miles," and maybe her orthodromic track is less than 21,600.


steveold
***

Apr 13, 2010, 8:12 PM

Post #12 of 73 (164356 views)
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Dear CK Sailor. You haven't ruffled my feathers at all. What is ruffling my feathers is that Jessica Watson's statements and claims are demeaning to genuine RTW sailors such as Kay Cottee and Jesse Martin and others! Indeed, I like a robust debate, but someone is having a wee tamper with the truth as far as distances go. I've been doing a bit of digging on the internet, and here's what I've unearthed. The attached route charts tell their own story. You will see that Jesse Martin rounded his Antipodal Point. Have a go at working it out for yourself. The WSSR Council lists Jesse's official distance as 21,760 NM, based on a calculated Great Circle distance, as opposed to the distance sailed. My calculation, using my trusty Garmin and a neat little on-line program titled "Great Circle Calculator" (http://216.147.18.102/dist/) (try it for yourself), came out at 21,820 NM but in fact the real distance would be greater than both, due to "meanderings" off course and weather routing. (e.g. the dreaded South Atlantic high), however the WSSRC can only take into account ACTUAL distance, not the distance sailed. The WSSR lists the minimum RTW distance as 21,600 NM, (40,000 Km) the circumference of the earth at the equator. My calculated estimate of Ms Watson's voyage, based on her (questionable and unsubstantiated) data posted on the Internet, is 18,582 NM, which is 3018 NM less than the official RTW distance, and 3178 NM less than Jesse Martin's official WSSRC Performance Certificate distance of 21,760. Further, in the absence of official and independent monitoring and verification, the onus must fall upon Ms Watson and her "people" to prove their claims. (Shades of Donald Crowhurst here) Even though the WSSRC have very recently discontinued the category of "youngest", Ms Watson could have availed herself of the WSSRC's service to verify her course distance, but elected not to do so! Hope this helps.
Attachments: Jessica Watson route.jpg (41.7 KB)
  Jesse Martin route.jpg (65.4 KB)
  RTW Routes.xls (21.5 KB)


The Publisher
*****


Apr 15, 2010, 1:12 PM

Post #13 of 73 (163989 views)
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Scuttlebutt 3070

From Howard Bentley:
Yes Ed Vincent, but to do so in any attempt to further the pursuit of being the youngest is still ignorant, full of hubris, and worthy of total and complete condemnation. The award should be the "moronic egotistical parental retardation award" given to the misguided parents who send ever younger children to sea in pursuit of a pseudo record that will someday get someone killed by its very name and intent, "The youngest to...."

Now we have some 13 year old attempting to be the Youngest to climb Everest. Where will it end? In death! Wake the f@&% up people. Sending mature children sailing singlehanded in a limited capacity is one thing, POSSIBLY, worthy of support depending on each individual. Pursuit of such ANY such record to be the "youngest" to do something that is potentially life threatening and possibly requiring the life sacrifice of others is egotistical, ignorant, and to be completely and totally condemned. Any sponsor, parent, or commercial interest that contributes to this madness should be held financially accountable for the foreseeable rescue costs once some child starts screaming "I want my mommy" from the open ocean.

The lawyers are waiting, and they are hungry!! Imagine how awfully fun it will be in court defending your profiteering against the death of some 12, 13, 14, or 15 year old, especially if that child was your flesh and blood. You will not be spared in your time of grief but put on display for your ignorant ego driven ignorant pursuit of fame.


The Publisher
*****


Apr 15, 2010, 1:12 PM

Post #14 of 73 (163988 views)
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Scuttlebutt 3071

From Steve Orosz:
Howard Bentley asks and answers “Where does it all end? In death!” Of course it does. Life is a terminal disease and nobody gets out of here alive (with apologies to Jim Morrison). That there are still a few willing to risk it all shows the rest of us that the human spirit isn’t dead yet. So yes, sooner or later someone will die in a foolish quest to be the oldest or the youngest at some trivial record and it will be a tragedy to all who knew them. But is a risk-free life really longer or does it only seem that way? The beauty of the human experience is that each of us gets to decide, for good or ill, what risks we are willing to take and whether it is worth it in the end. The few who dare to take the big risks serve to inspire and enrich the rest of us who don’t.

From Jim Mahaffy:
I couldn’t agree with Howard Bentley's comments more! I have been saying that to all interested parties ever since this "youngest" all started.





The Publisher
*****


Apr 15, 2010, 1:14 PM

Post #15 of 73 (163985 views)
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From Howard Bentley:
Hold on Steve Orosz. Please do not suggest that I am against risk taking or even pursuits so risky that it might end in ones own death. I have and will continue to participate in such activities and they can be quite fulfilling. I am not even opposed to some 15 year old taking suck calculated risks. However, when you make it a "youngest" competition to see how immature is too immature, you cross a line that other risky pursuits do not.

This has nothing to do with the human spirit but rather the human ego. To suggest otherwise is a disingenuous and misses the point. If this were about the human spirit and personal achievement as opposed to EGO, the pursuit would be for it's own merit and personal sense of achievement rather than a "record" and the medial exposure that follows. Were these kids sailing for their own benefit without press, sponsors, and a rush to leave for a "record" attempt, I might well support them. But the moment it becomes a quest for a title, I not only stop supporting them but become against it all together.

Competing to be the youngest can only come about through the support of the parents who are the principally guilty parties in their support of such vain record attempts. If ego fulfillment is what the human spirit is about, then we are all doomed. If fame is the goal, our world is screwed. To suggest that this point equates with some disdain for risk taking is absurd and misses my point and it's specificity. Perhaps you might re-read my words and notice that I specifically refer to YOUNGEST TO.... and only YOUNGEST TO... attempts. Not the risk taking, not the potential for death, but competitions that place a premium on getting ever closer to the age of insufficient maturity.





The Publisher
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Apr 15, 2010, 1:18 PM

Post #16 of 73 (163983 views)
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Scuttlebutt 3072

From Tom Priest:
Fine and dandy response Steve...if only the person who died in the foolish quest wasn't a MINOR! The problem, as I see it, is that the person/people (ie:parent) who urged and/or permitted the minor to participate in this fatal adventure is still ashore and DOESN'T suffer the same result.

Call it 'incomplete Darwinism' if you like...Perfect Darwinism removes the ENTIRE gene pool..."don't just trim a branch, cut down the whole darn tree!"

So...in MY perfect (imaginary) world...the adult (parent) who signs off on this foolish quest effectively puts his own 'skin' in the game and magically disappears as well if the kid doesn't make it back... I would then bet the urge to be the ‘youngest whatever’ would diminish QUICKLY because the parents overbearing desire to live vicariously through their kid's exploits would be greatly tamed (and even if the parents weren't overbearing...they would likely exercise a little more restraint before turning the kid loose...). If I'm not mistaken, I think the term is called "PARENTING"!

Free-will, risking life & limb, promoting the 'human spirit of adventure' are all truly great concepts...for those old enough to understand the consequences. As a minor, they haven't been alive long enough to understand the gravity of true failure. This is NOT a video game, you do not get to press "control/alt/delete", there are no 'do-overs'. This is the ultimate "Do not pass GO, Do not collect $200" maneuver.....Sorry my friend....YOU ARE DEAD.


steveold
***

Apr 15, 2010, 5:34 PM

Post #17 of 73 (163941 views)
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Dead right Howard Bentley. This recent Media Release puts everything in proper perspective! "JESSICA Watson could be one of the country's richest teenagers, with a multi-million-dollar sponsorship bonanza awaiting her return to dry land.
Jessica, 16, who sailed out of Australian waters in a rush of controversy, has entered the home stretch of her journey and will return in late April-early May to a warm welcome and live TV coverage.
There will also be a raft of deals awaiting the Sunshine Coast girl's signature, which could make her the highest-earning Aussie teen.
Her round-the-world odyssey, solo and unassisted, will reap big rewards financially as companies queue to join early backers
Ella Bache and One HD.
"We've had approaches from an automotive company but she hasn't even got her L-plates yet," said spokesman Andrew Fraser. "She's old enough to sail round the world but can't drive a car."
While she still has more than 6000 nautical miles to sail to Sydney Harbour, she is on course to become a global star in the mould of Olympic snowboarder Torah Bright - transcending the confines of sailing to become a poster girl for action and adventure.
Dubbed the "Jessica juggernaut", interest in the teenager is skyrocketing. Her website receives about one million hits a week and her fan base has extended internationally.
Jessica's book, which she is writing at sea, will be released in late July and coincide with the release of a documentary.
"Our job is to manage and protect the Jessica Watson brand. If done properly, then she will maximise the potential of the commercial
opportunities that present themselves," Mr Fraser said.
He has already received more than 20 requests for appearances by Jessica, with various offers flooding in, and staff at 5 Oceans Media are working full-time to cope with demand.
"We have tried to avoid talking about anything but such is the interest now Jess is very excited it is all getting so close," Mr Fraser said.
Interest in a teen - who captured the imagination of a nation at first worried she was too young for a trip that has seen her survive cyclonic force winds, wild seas and terrifying knockdowns - could make her a multi-millionaire.
Yesterday, however, far from the wheeling and dealing surrounding her imminent return, Jessica was happily surfing the Indian Ocean on her little 34-foot yacht, Ella's Pink Lady.
"There's still so many miles to cover across the Indian and then around the bottom of Australia but it really feels like we're on the homeward leg now," she blogged.
Jessica is now about 4000 nautical miles off the West Australian coast, about 6000 nautical miles from the finish of her voyage.


cowabunga
**

May 1, 2010, 12:00 PM

Post #18 of 73 (161479 views)
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In Reply To
Her route is supposedly 23,000 miles, so that shouldn't be the problem.



They say 23 000 nautical miles which is approx 38 000 km. That is obviously an error





steveold
***

May 1, 2010, 3:38 PM

Post #19 of 73 (161472 views)
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THEY, being Ms Watson's spin doctors and financial advisers, merely SAY the distance is 23,000 NM.
They cannot, AND REFUSE to, provide a scrap of evidence to back that figure.
After all, the Sydney Hobart official Race distance id 628 NM, no matter how many miles are added
by tacking, gybing and zigzagging all over the course.
The distance is still 628 NM!
As THEY seem to have finally accepted, after a lot of criticism from the local sailing community, that
this voyage will not qualify for a Circumnavigation, they are now plugging for a RTW by adding
around 3,000 NM to the GC distance of Ms Watson's course.
The reason is so they can lay FALSE claim to Jesse Martins official WSSRC record.
Her PR people are indulging in a major tamper with the truth in an attempt to acquire financial
benefit, not only for Ms Watson, but for themselves!
A breakdown of Ms Watson's GC and Rhumbline distances are available in the attachments in an
earlier post.


The Publisher
*****


May 3, 2010, 1:24 PM

Post #20 of 73 (161317 views)
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From Sail-World:

As publication for sailors, not the general public, it behoves us to be accurate about round the world circumnavigation records at a time when there are some fairly confusing distance figure and claims being bandied about.

With the enthralling tales of Australian schoolgirl 16 year old Jessica Watson's voyage gaining enormous attention in the media, we have been inundated with emails, texts, skypes and calls from sailors who have been concerned that there is much confusion in the mainstream media and as one navigator commented 'apples are not being compared to apples'

When Jessica Watson sails into Sydney Harbour next weekend, she will have survived a bruising voyage with bravery and skill, and be on her way to fame and fortune, but she will not have taken Jesse Martin's non-stop unassisted round-world record from him.

In fact, technically speaking, she will not have even been 'around the world'. -- Read on


waiknot
****

May 5, 2010, 6:09 PM

Post #21 of 73 (161011 views)
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how can there be this confusion over what is a circumnavigation, to quote

Sir Francis Chichester, who defined it as 'A true circumnavigation of the world ... where the track passed over 2 points antipodean to each other ... a circumnavigation where the vessel passes through two points on the earth's surface which are diametrically opposite each other …'

If you start and finish from the same point, cross all longitudinal lines and pass through 2 points diametrically opposite each other you have succeeded if you haven't you failed. how can people not understand this?


willbaillieu
****

May 5, 2010, 7:32 PM

Post #22 of 73 (160961 views)
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How sad to see such argument about Jessica Watson's voyage.
When she finally sails into Sydney she will have done exactly as Waiknot has stated. Started and finished in Sydney, crossed all the meridians of longitude and sailed in both hemispheres.
Short of physically dragging her boat across continents that get in the way, or sailing around in circles in the North Atlantic I don't see how else she was supposed to sail around the world. What a lot of rubbish all you "record keepers" spout.
What a miserable bunch of pedantic killjoys you are.
Why don't you all try something new; try simply enjoying the youthful enthusiasm and determination that young Jessica has displayed.
Try imagining yourselves in her situation and think how you might cope.
She has endured all that can be expected. She has coped admirably and relived the experience of Chichester and Rose and all the other famous solo circumnavigators. She has enthralled us and captured our hearts with her cheery attitude and her youthful bravery.
She has done all this because she genuinely loves what she is doing. She is not trying to set or break records. She simply wants to sail around the world. With any luck she will achieve her goal some time after the weekend.
Personally I will miss her cheery blogs. I care nothing for all the hooha that the press will thrust upon us. I am sure the teenager will not either, and I hope she is not damaged by it. While she is entitled to reap her rewards, I suspect the real reward will be in her own heart, in the knowledge that she has gained about her own abilities.
What a wonderful example to the youth of the world.
Good luck to her.





waiknot
****

May 5, 2010, 9:35 PM

Post #23 of 73 (160904 views)
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Sorry Will,
She has not done exactly as I stated.

Please show me where and when she passed over 2 points antipodean to each other EG: where the vessel passes through two points on the earth's surface which are diametrically opposite each other?????

Jessica has without a doubt had a great adventure and achieved a remarkable feat, but we should not devalue the efforts of people such as Jesse Martin who have completed a true circumnavigation.
I question whether Jessica may have been misled by the adults involved in her campaign into thinking she has achieved something she hasn't.


willbaillieu
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May 5, 2010, 10:40 PM

Post #24 of 73 (160890 views)
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I rest my case.


waiknot
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May 6, 2010, 4:19 AM

Post #25 of 73 (160771 views)
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Sorry Will to rest your case you need to present it. all you have done is incorrectly quote me in an attempt to justify an incorrect position.

Could you answer my question?
Please show me where and when she passed over 2 points antipodean to each other EG: where the vessel passes through two points on the earth's surface which are diametrically opposite each other?????

Or do you consider it unnecessary to meet this requirement to achieve a true circumnavigation?


texasjump
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May 6, 2010, 10:34 AM

Post #26 of 73 (160390 views)
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From what I have been able to determine Jessica's course has not passed 2 points antipodean to each other. This would have to of course be related to the point of her course where she sailed north of the equator.

The accepted defination of circumnavigation includes sailing through 2 antipodean points. Round-the-World requirements as set out by the WSSRC does not require the passage of 2 antipodean points. They rely however on all the other requirements to include a strict adherance to completing a specified distance as defined by great circle measurements.

I feel Jessica has accomplished an amazing feat, it is unfortunate that there are people out there fighting over whether she will be considered a circumnavigator or RTW sailor.


cowabunga
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May 6, 2010, 3:47 PM

Post #27 of 73 (160202 views)
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In Reply To
How sad to see such argument about Jessica Watson's voyage.
When she finally sails into Sydney she will have done exactly as Waiknot has stated.


It is sad to see this argument. It need never have happened if jessica had simply followed the rules, and if her PR people hadn't told lies.

There is no doubting it is a great achievement but she simply hasn't done a TRUE circumnavigation (difficult to achieve for anyone on water) nor has she fulfilled the requirements for a Round The World voyage as defined by the WSSR.

I don't understand why she didn't just sail to a point further north and thus satisfy the RTW rules. Her whole support network seems more geared to PR and sponsorship than good navigation.

Her own website had the conversion from nm to km incorrect.

Now they are saying she sailed over 23 000nm, but are a bit shy on saying whether that is point to point GC distances or actual distance sailed. It must be the point to point distances.

So yes it is sad that she didn't satisfy the requirements to elevate this feat to true RTW status, and it is sadder to see her PR machine go into overdrive with half truths and spin.


steveold
***

May 6, 2010, 8:02 PM

Post #28 of 73 (160093 views)
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Jeez waiknot.
Don't you realize you're living dangerously, tangling with willbailieu.
After all, he is a Member of the Melbourne Aristocracy and a genuine America's Cup Hero, and
one not to be messed with.
Just ask him.
He also considers himself something of a legend, in much the same manner as Narcissus.

Here's a couple of recent SailWorld articles.
Both are spot on, and particularly in relation to the 18 years of age reference.

Someone once said...
"Rules are made for the guidance of fools and the benefit of experts"

http://www.sail-world.com/...s,-and-PR-Spin/69252

http://www.sail-world.com/...st-her-PR-Team/69253


waiknot
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May 6, 2010, 8:25 PM

Post #29 of 73 (160080 views)
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Haha,
I've had the pleasure of crossing words with Will before over the America's Cup, but if he wants to quote me or make a point do it corectly.

However I agree with most everybody here about the amazing achievment Jessica is making, however her marketing department is shifting the focus away from this by pretending she has acheived something she has not.


ACS
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May 7, 2010, 8:51 AM

Post #30 of 73 (159946 views)
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Hi there Steve,

you said: Dear CK Sailor. You haven't ruffled my feathers at all. What is ruffling my feathers is that Jessica Watson's statements and claims are demeaning to genuine RTW sailors such as Kay Cottee and Jesse Martin and others! Indeed, I like a robust debate.

Well here is something for the debate: you calculated Jesse Martin's mileage. Would you be so kind and do the same for Kay Cottee's circumnavigation? While your at it, please do the same for Jon Sanders. They are both WSSRC recognized 'round the world' record holders. You're in for a surprise.

And for your information: Jesse Martin did not round his antipodal point. That would not have made any sense anyway, because it is in the middle of the ocean and the WSSRC rules only accept points that are fixed to land.





CKSailor
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May 8, 2010, 10:01 AM

Post #31 of 73 (159652 views)
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What seems missing in your calculation of the orthodromic... See More lenth of Watson's route around the world is recognizing the islands she has sailed around besides the six points that you used in your calculations (Sydney Heads, Line Islands, Cape Horn, Cape Agulhas, SE Cape Tasmania, and Sydney Heads). The WSSCR rule states: "A vessel starting from any point where the direct orthodromic distance is too short shall pass one single island or other fixed point on a required side so as to lengthen his orthodromic track to the minimum distance." Thus, if she passed any island or land mass that lengthened the great circle sailing route between any of the six points you used in your calculations, you would need to add those points and recalculate.

In addition to the six points you used, the following islands may have extended some of those legs: from Sydney to Line Islands: Tonga, Jarvis and (if you did not use it as your Line Island) Kiribati; from Line Islands to Cape Horn: Malden, Flint Island and Maupiti; from Cape horn to Cape Agulhas: Tristan da Cunha; and from Cape Agulhas to SE Cape Tasmania: possibly Port Aux Francais (French Southern and Antarctic Lands) (I do not have a globe handy nor a program to determine if rounding those islands on the side that she did would lengthen your legs--but I trust you would want to check those out to determine her correctly calculated orthodromic distance. (Just to keep the record straight.)


willbaillieu
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May 8, 2010, 1:42 PM

Post #32 of 73 (159580 views)
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Steve,
you claim to know me, but I have no idea who you are.
And no, I don't live in Melbourne, nor do I belong in the aristocracy. That's in England, and I sure as hell don't live there.
I have never claimed to be a legend. As far as I know Narcissus is a Greek restaurant in Richmond.
It's all something that you have in your mind mate, and your comments say a lot more about you than they do about me.
If you want to know what I am, I am heartily sick of all the argument and nit picking over Jessica Watson's voyage.
You people are like Desperate Housewives. Peeking out from behind the curtains, tut tutting and claiming some sort of ownership over this girl's achievement. Whatever she does, it's just not good enough.
Armchair experts always sh*t me. Despite all the rubbish spouted on here, there are counter arguments just as strong.
Who cares?
I suggest some of you just calm down, maybe get out of the house occasionally.
Look at the little red track on Jessica's web site. Amazing, it goes right around the world; starting and finishing in the Southern Hemisphere, and includes a detour north of the Equator. She has somehow managed to sail around all the land masses on earth. Apparently that's just not good enough for the Desperate Housewives.
I feel sorry for people who cannot experience simple joys.


In Reply To
Jeez waiknot.
Don't you realize you're living dangerously, tangling with willbailieu.
After all, he is a Member of the Melbourne Aristocracy and a genuine America's Cup Hero, and
one not to be messed with.
Just ask him.
He also considers himself something of a legend, in much the same manner as Narcissus.

Here's a couple of recent SailWorld articles.
Both are spot on, and particularly in relation to the 18 years of age reference.

Someone once said...
"Rules are made for the guidance of fools and the benefit of experts"

http://www.sail-world.com/...s,-and-PR-Spin/69252

http://www.sail-world.com/...st-her-PR-Team/69253






cowabunga
**

May 11, 2010, 1:32 AM

Post #33 of 73 (159197 views)
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In Reply To

Look at the little red track on Jessica's web site. Amazing, it goes right around the world; starting and finishing in the Southern Hemisphere, and includes a detour north of the Equator. She has somehow managed to sail around all the land masses on earth. Apparently that's just not good enough for the Desperate Housewives.
I feel sorry for people who cannot experience simple joys.


Please remind me to never let you navigate. She doesn't go around the world, she goes around Antarctica with a short deviation into the northern hemisphere.

If you think that is round the world what next? Someone walks around the south pole covers about 3 metres and claims they have walked around the world?

We live on a sphere. Going around one small end is not the same as a circumnavigation.

This has nothing to do with desperate housewives or tall poppy. This is very simple. She didn't meet the requirements for a RTW voyage and is is demeaning to the people who do actually do a RTW for her to claim she did.

What happens is that PR and media darlings detract from actual achievements. If you want to claim to have gone around the world the first thing you need to do is actually go around the world.


cowabunga
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May 11, 2010, 1:35 AM

Post #34 of 73 (159196 views)
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From the link above. Really says it all.




Rules must be observed in sporting challenges and there are few greater than the circumnavigation of the globe under sail, let alone as an unaided single-hander. Jesse did and sailed more than the required 21,600 miles, but, under the WSSR rules, Jessica has not. She cannot therefore claim to have beaten Jesse’s record, as her publicist insists.

There never has been a better example of the vast difference between fact and public relations perspective than this. It is an almost unfathomable chasm. On the one hand, the facts are indisputable, while on the other those facts interfere with the public relations objective.


.....


The indisputable facts that have been carefully calculated would indicate that all the requirements of a genuine round-the-world record passage have NOT been met.


ACS
**

May 11, 2010, 4:18 PM

Post #35 of 73 (159126 views)
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Well then Cowabunga,

The difference between fact and public relations perspective is not that clear at all. The WSSRC lists Kay Cottee and Jon Sanders as official RTW record holders. Yet they sailed, just like Jessica Watson, the "short route". All three off them, however, sailed more then the required 21.600 nm. Explain to me: Why are the circumnavigations of Kay Cottee (which was Jessica Watson's example) and Jon Sanders recognized, and why is Jessica Watson's circumnavigation not?

In Reply To





steveold
***

May 11, 2010, 5:00 PM

Post #36 of 73 (159122 views)
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Right on again, cowabunga.
David Dicks missed out on the record, and the fame, merely because of a $2.00 bolt.
Did anyone hear him screaming FOUL?
Of course not, he accepted the umpire's decision like a man and a true sportsman.

The Watson's "bleeding heart" supporters seem to believe their Jessica is entitled to some
sort of special treatment, such as waiving the rules.
Why?
Because she is 16, (a year younger then David Dicks) or perhaps because she is a "she"?

Or perhaps its because of the MONEY.
Nah, couldn't be.......or could it?


cowabunga
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May 11, 2010, 11:32 PM

Post #37 of 73 (159078 views)
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In Reply To
Well then Cowabunga,

The difference between fact and public relations perspective is not that clear at all. The WSSRC lists Kay Cottee and Jon Sanders as official RTW record holders. Yet they sailed, just like Jessica Watson, the "short route". All three off them, however, sailed more then the required 21.600 nm. Explain to me: Why are the circumnavigations of Kay Cottee (which was Jessica Watson's example) and Jon Sanders recognized, and why is Jessica Watson's circumnavigation not?

In Reply To



I don't know you would need to ask the WSSRC. However just because someone else MAY have got away with it should this also be allowed to go?

Also your post seems a bit inconsistent. You say they sailed the "short route" but did more than 21 600nm. Well if the did more than 21 600nm then all is fine. It is this issue which Jessica failed to meet.


ACS
**

May 12, 2010, 1:34 AM

Post #38 of 73 (159062 views)
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I asked the WSSRC. They won't comment on Watson's round the world trip, since they did not monitor it. Important is that they don't say that her rounding does not comply with WSSRC-rules. (They did so with Zac Sunderland). So far only Sail-World.com says so, but they don't make the rules. In fact the article was based on a mis-quotation of John Reed (WSSRC secretaty). The quote was hastily removed from their website.

Jessica Watson sailed more then 21.600 nm, as did Kay Cottee and Jon Sanders. But that is because they did not sail the shortest route from start to turning point to finish. (That would have taken them too far south; icebergs, strong westerly winds).
With short route I mean the choice of the turning point. Watson chose Christmas Island in the Pacific. Cottee and Sanders took the St Peter and St. Paul rocks in the Atlantic. Both points are just over the equator. The calculated route is (for all three) about 2000 - 3000 nm too short.

Even Jesse Martin's calculated distance is questionable. He took the Azores as turning point. He started from Melbourne (more to the south then Sydney) so his calculated distance is close to the required 21.600 nm, but as far as I can see it is still not far enough (86 nm short). The fact that he sailed over 2 antipodean points is not relevant as far as the WSSRC rules are concerned. The antipodeal point for Melbourne is in the middle of the ocean and the WSSRC rules require a turning point "on one single island".

Jessica Watson was planning a route simular to the route Kay Cottee took. You can read that in several interviews on Internet, published before she was leaving. Since Cottee's record is recognized by the WSSRC, it seems logical that she made that choice. Who could think that Cottee's RTW trip did not comply with the rules of the organization that recognizes her record??? If a mistake was made, it was made by the WSSRC. Not by Jessica Watson. (or at worse: the mistake was copied)

For Watson it is almost impossible to defend herself. If she does, Kay Cottee will pay the bill (and Jon Sanders, Ken Gourlay and probably Jesse Martin). Kay Cottee is an icon in Australia (Australian of the year, Officer in the order of Australia, a national hero!). It's an impossible route.

I think the outcome will be that the WSSRC will eventually state that Watson's circumnavigation is comparable to Cottee's and Sanders' circumnavigation. And then they will change the rules. Changing the rules is necessary, because they were made for speed sailing and not for a required minimum distance.


steveold
***

May 12, 2010, 1:49 AM

Post #39 of 73 (159058 views)
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ACS.
You are full of it!!!
You say "Jessica Watson sailed more then 21.600 nm." PROVE IT!!!
You say "Jessica Watson was planning a route similar to the route Kay Cottee took."
Kay Cottee and Jesse Martin both crossed the equator in the Atlantic, not the benign conditions of the aptly-named Pacific.
Ms Watson describes her "chosen route" as "traditional"
ACS, if you're such an admirer, can you name one sailor who's sailed that route?
(Apart from Capt James Cook)
And finally this......"I think the outcome will be that the WSSRC will eventually state that Watson's circumnavigation is comparable to Cottee's and Sanders' circumnavigation. And then they will change the rules. Changing the rules is necessary, because they were made for speed sailing and not for a required minimum distance"
I can guarantee the WSSRC will NOT be commenting.
I repeat, you are full of it!!!!!
Please desist from displaying your ignorance!


ACS
**

May 12, 2010, 2:35 AM

Post #40 of 73 (159053 views)
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Thank you for your friendly reply.

I cannot prove that she sailed more then 21.600 nm. I just believe it when I look at her positionreports. They seem reasonable. So far nobody has any doubt about that. You would be the first. But this is not the issue here.

I explained why the route is simular. They took a turning point JUST over the equator. Every other circumnavigator starting from the southern hemisphere did the same, except Jesse Martin. He deserves all the credits for that.

There is nothing in the WSSRC-rules about choosing for benign conditions (as far as that is possible). In think it is the most responsible thing to do.

You said earlier that Watson's route was shorter than Jesse Martin's route and Kay Cottee's route. You calculated Jesse Martin's route with some smart program you have. I challenged you before to do the same with Kay Cottee's route. Do so and you will find out that her calculated distance is, give or take a few miles, the same as Watson's.

Like to hear from you.


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