Scuttlebutt Website SCUTTLEBUTT
SAILING NEWS
ForumIndex CLASSIFIED ADS Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG IN         

Forum Index: .: Dock Talk:
34th Cup in SF in Multihulls
Team McLube

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 14, 2010, 12:39 PM

Post #1 of 66 (150989 views)
Shortcut
34th Cup in SF in Multihulls Log-In to Post/Reply

From both the Alinghi and BMW/Oracle press conferences the concenus from Ernesto to Butterworth to Ellison, Spitall and Coutts was to stay with the biggest baddest coolest boats on the planet. Cam Lewis asked Ellison what was the coolest boat he ever sailed on and it was USA17. Ellison ticked off a lot of non-sailing commercial reasons (sponsorships and audience appeal) as to why the high tech, fast multihulls were the best platform for the next America's Cup.

It sounds like SF has first dibs on the next Cup race but it will depend on the city building a venue and with budget times in SF and CA, that could be an issue.


peterbrown77
***


Feb 14, 2010, 3:52 PM

Post #2 of 66 (150959 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

This whole "venue" thing that got started with TNZ is a real impediment. They've got to figure out how do this quickly and with less expense, these long 3 and 4 year cycles (5 years with NZ the first time) kill the momentum of the sport and add lots of cost, just from the salary point of view alone.

Personally, I'd love Newport - it's close by and has a long history. Sadly though, it's not 1983 anymore. All those lofts and facilities are long, long gone. Converted to condos, torn out for restaurants. They'd have to move up the river a bit - or get really cozy over at the Newport Shipyard.


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 14, 2010, 4:20 PM

Post #3 of 66 (150954 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

San Francisco is the natural home for the America's Cup. Great wind for exciting races a la Fremantle. A huge instant audience in a high media spot with lots of tourist facilities. As Ellison pointed out, a high tech race in state of the art sail boats attracts a high tech audience bringing in a new audience for sponsors. Depressed Oakland would be a great spot to use America's Cup to build a Baltimore Harbor redevelopmen.

Newport...ugh...always a slow dog show with fog...out of sight...no natural audience.


peterbrown77
***


Feb 14, 2010, 4:25 PM

Post #4 of 66 (150953 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Right on the fog - wrong on the breeze. A nice southwesterly always fills in at around 1pm and by late afternoon it's usually honking 20-25. Get in too close to Beavertail and the seas really pile up too, it's shaped like a funnel going to Fort Adams.


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 14, 2010, 4:30 PM

Post #5 of 66 (150952 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

"Nice" breeze doesn't cut it. Fremantle Doctor is what is needed for great races. Newport really has nothing to recommend it. It was chosen for proximity to robber baron mansions in the 20's not for modern high media, high tech sports audience. This is era of X-games and the multihull duel just wowed'em.

Every one at the two interviews was for moving forward with the America's Cup being what it originally was, a battle of the coolest, fastest, biggest boats...the big multi's.


Mal
*****


Feb 14, 2010, 6:54 PM

Post #6 of 66 (150940 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The thing I like about San Fran is that the wind doesn't blow til noon. Any normal sailor would just be recovering from the night before to go racing about then....
Check Six .......Mal


waiknot
****

Feb 14, 2010, 8:08 PM

Post #7 of 66 (150931 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I don't know San Fran at all but its the location of Oracles home base yacht club. to me there is something romantic about taking the cup home and others having to come and challenge you on your home turf.

I believe we are going to see a class of boat more affordable but incorporating lots of this new technology, can you do a fixed wing on a monohull??? Don't laugh theres so much weird shit happening now.


The Publisher
*****


Feb 15, 2010, 4:43 PM

Post #8 of 66 (150855 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

With the America’s Cup now concluded, it is easy to forget about the misery last week when the racing was stalled. With the event slipping from the media radar, Scott MacLeod, former chairman of the World Match Racing Tour, shared his sentiment from Valencia:


I am just getting on the plane to go back home to London from Valencia after four days and no racing. At least I didn't fly to New Zealand and wait 10 days with no races as I did in 2003. I guess I have a short memory. While the boats are amazing to look at and truly technological marvels, this Cup is not even close to the event that I witnessed in 2007. The buzz, the public interest, the teams and the business that was generated in 2007 may never be achieved again and this event is not helping to further the sport or the America's Cup brand.

It was unfortunate to see the top sailors and teams in our sport sidelined, walking the docks hoping that this will all be over soon. Everyone seems to be putting on a brave face and I am amazed at what they have put together in just under two months to deliver this event to the public. There was a public village, interactive displays, live TV and the foredeck club was filled with usual VIPs. However, the numbers were much smaller and I only hope the public stay around until this thing finishes.

Having visited with friends on both teams, I was surprised by how deep and wide the chasm of misunderstanding and mistrust is between both sides. Unfortunately know one in our sport has been able to provide the leadership to bridge that gap for the good of the sport. I am not sure where Goran Petersson, the President of our Governing body, was while Valencia was burning. I didn't see or hear of him anywhere in Valencia and he surely wasn't standing behind PRO Harold Bennett during the press conference on Wednesday (when Bennett was getting grilled). The total lack of leadership and direction from Goran has been one of the most frustrating aspects of the last three years. Sticking your head in the sand and hoping it all just goes away isn't the way to lead our sport.

One thing is for sure, whoever the winner chooses as its challenger of record will send a clear message as to their true intentions. We will clearly see if all the rhetoric of a fair, multi-challenger event for the future is true. The ultimate winner will truly have it in their hands to do the right thing for the sport. I have a bet with someone that the winner will do the right thing and choose a challenger who will offer the credibility and direction that the event needs to get back on track. I hope I win that beer.


The Publisher
*****


Feb 15, 2010, 5:16 PM

Post #9 of 66 (150846 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

STANDING BY FOR 34th AMERICA’S CUP
The monster multihulls might have taken sailing to another stratosphere off Valencia, but you can bank on a return to monohulls for the 34th America's Cup. That was the message from victorious BMW Oracle Racing chief executive Russell Coutts, who earmarked a return to traditional monohulls, with a boat able to plane downwind likely to replace the now relatively sluggish Version 5 boats used during the last multi-challenger America's Cup in 2007.

"I think we should reach consensus with the rest of the America's Cup world," Coutts said. "It would be irresponsible for one party to try and make a decision on behalf of everyone else. You have to put a lot of thought into these types of decisions because this is a 159-year-old trophy and we must look after it."

Team owner Larry Ellison promised an independent organising committee including an impartial jury and umpires, for the next multi-challenger event, agreeing it was important that there was a level playing field for all competitors to bring sponsors and fans back to sailing's pinnacle event.

"We're going to try and make decisions along with the rest of the America's Cup community to do just that, so we can attract sponsorship and funding for all of the teams that want to participate, not only BMW Oracle and Alinghi, but also the Chinese team and the South African team and the Swedish team and the New Zealand team," Ellison said. "If we do our job well and work closely with them, it should be the most popular America's Cup, the 34th America's Cup."

When and where America's Cup 34 is sailed remains a moot point. Newport, Rhode Island seems the frontrunner among a list of potential host cities that includes Valencia, San Diego and San Francisco, the home of the Golden Gate Yacht Club under whose flag Oracle races. A 2013 event looks most likely too with 2011 too soon and 2012 clashing with the London Olympics. -- Full story: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/3332101/Return-to-monohulls-likely-Coutts


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 15, 2010, 6:58 PM

Post #10 of 66 (150780 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Not what Coutts said. You can replay the BMW/Oracle day after press conference for Coutts comment

http://www.livestream.com/bmworacleracing

He said that two months ago he was firmly in the return to monohulls camp but after the current race, he was forced to rethink his views. Everyone who was asked, Barterelli, Butterworth, Ellison, Coutts, Spitall all said that the amazing race had changed their minds and that they had to consider that racing the biggest, fastest, most exciting boats on the planet was the way to go.

Ellison and Coutt's comments dovetailed in that both noted a KEY element is attracting new viewers to sailing and attracting sponsors and it is exciting events like Fremantle and the recent "Amazing Race" that had a new audience tuning in.

Spitall said the most disappointing thing to him was that he couldn't go out and sail the trimaran again because it was the most exciting boat he had ever raced in.

Ellison that it was the coolest boat he ever raced on...with a little prompting from Cam Lewis who was lobbying for multihulls for 34th race all during the broadcast pointing out that the origin of the race was unlimited, you bring your fastest boat and we'll bring ours and give it a go.


Geologyinc
**

Feb 16, 2010, 5:21 AM

Post #11 of 66 (150623 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I would prefer to see the 34th AC challenge take place without the acrimonious litigation that so soured the 33rd AC challenge. The litigious court antics were an embarrassment to the sailing community and very regrettable. Litigation should not be what sailboat match racing is about.

As for monohulls versus multihulls, I would prefer to defer to a 'consensus' opinion of the top echelon members of the sailing community on that, if it is possible, but more likely it will have to be based upon a majority opinion. While I am a classical, one-design mono-hull sailor, this multihull AC challenge presented an advancement in the sport of match sailing which allowed for new technologies and science to be introduced and incorporated into the sport. Racing of one-design mono-hulls may not be the most effective way to allow for such new developments and advancements of in the use of materials and designs. On the other hand, just allowing an 'anything goes' environment to rule the roost is not an effective means for match racing either.

In my personal opinion, "Match Racing" should be intended to represent the best in sailing skills which may be drawn from the crew, navigator, and helmsman of the competing boats, assuming that the boats are relatively equal in design. In "match racing", technology and science should be used to "tweak" the best performance out of two similarly designed vessels, but it should not become the dominant, over-riding factor in match racing competition so that you have lop-sided victories which can be so dull and uninteresting.

So there must be a final decision that should be made soon. Will the 34th AC Challenge be conducted in mono-hulls, bi-hulls, or tri-hulls? Not a mix. Pick one style of hull class and stick to it through-out the match racing challenge series.

However, whatever hull style is selected, the vessels must be able to demonstrate that they can be safely sailed in both light-air (greater than 5-knots) and heavy air (up to 20-knots with gusts to 27-knots) conditions on the open ocean. The BS about the Swiss boat being unable to sail in seas in excess of 1-meter meant to me that it was a vessel which was not intended for ocean-sailing conditions. In my opinion, these match racing boats should be of sea-worthy condition and safe in seas up to 3-meters.

Also, I would prefer seeing a best of 4 wins out of a 7-match race series. What a disappointment the 33rd AC challenge was by being restricted to the best two wins out of three match races was. You never got to see what the boats really could do under differing wind and sea conditions. It seemed to be over before it ever got started.

Water-line length: Clearly there were some shenanigans going on on what truly represented the Water Line Length of the Swiss boat depending upon whether she pumped on water to re-ballast the vessel or not. There needs to be a clearly defined rule to address this issue. Personally, I think that a boat must have a fixed "ballast" at the time she is measured with all the equipment that she may use in a race already on board which can not be transferred off in the future prior to a race. The only exception might be the crew. Although perhaps there might be be a maximum/minimum crew size number or total combined crew weight range that could be designated.

As for the Venue, as an Easterner, I once might have had a bias towards Newport, RI. However, my real preference is to have the venue sailed in an area where there are steady, reliable wind conditions and the home port of the venue has deep water with sufficient housing and training facilities to support many competing teams, their supporters and the large body of spectators who hopefully will come to watch. The venue home port should have a good public transportation infrastructure (airports, buses, trains, interstate highways, etc) which will allow easy access to and from it. It preferably should be located near a large metropolitan areas that may help to attract and support a large spectator body.

Those are my peronal thoughts and comments for what they may be worth.





EaglesPDX
***

Feb 16, 2010, 7:20 AM

Post #12 of 66 (150552 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Geologyinc] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

1. There won't be any legal issues. That was caused by Bertarelli doing Putin imitations.

2. "Match racing" has its place but this is the America's Cup the roots of which are one nation's fastest sailboat vs. another's with technology of sailing key to winning.

"The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water-line; if of more than one mast they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water-line."

That's it. Fastest boat wins.

The two best, the only two really riveting, America's Cup races were Fremantle where the weather made it a great race and Valencia 2010 where no limits on technology and speed made it a great race.

Coutts made those two points in the day-after press conference. Ellison made it in the post race press conference. The two races that attracted the most outside interest were Fremantle and Valencia 2010 and that is going to be necessary to attract a new and bigger audience to sailing, to attract media, to attract sponsors. Coutts also mentioned need to have a youth component to attract and involve young people in sailing and also the need to make it more of a nation vs. nation competition with construction and crew requirements, if not 100% some "content" requirement over 50%.

A race between nations using unlimited sailing technology and the fastest boat wins.


dick enersen
**

Feb 16, 2010, 8:10 AM

Post #13 of 66 (150534 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I was invited to a very pleasant gathering at Golden Gate Yacht Club to help celebrate the club's recent America’s Cup victory. One of the principal topics, after the champagne toasts, was "Can we host the next AC here on the Bay?" Lots of e-mails have raised the same question.

As a San Francisco native, of course I would love it if we could hold the 34th America's Cup match here, but check this out... (see diagram attached)

Going back to the 32nd Cup, the course format was a 3 nautical mile leg sailed windward/leeward, twice around. In all multi-challenger events to date, at least two separate racing areas have been designated, one for the use of the defender(s) and one, or more, for the challengers.

There is only one part of the bay which is both open enough and deep enough for a 3 mile, or anything close to it, circle. Even the middle of the bay is not very good, since the marks would have to be set in very deep, very tidal places, and the area is sliced to bits by VTS (shipping) lanes and ferry routes.

If the practical maritime concerns aren't enough, please consider also that:

* There will be no joy from any governmental body. They may even fight the idea. San Francisco has scant need for more tourist traffic in summer, and very little appetite for an "elitist" activity such as ours, which will require municipal resources and infrastructure.
* The local yacht racing association has established rights to set its courses on the Bay, too.
* It's hard to find enough real estate for a Halsey Street or Darsena type Cup Village. If you can find it, on Treasure Island, Alameda, or maybe on abandoned piers, it will be terribly expensive, hard to permit, etc.

People have floated various other ideas, such as sailing smaller boats on smaller courses, or sailing the Louis Vuitton Challenger Series elsewhere and holding just the Cup match here. The first idea doesn't do justice to the Cup, and the other falls apart for myriad reasons.

I wish it were otherwise.


Attachments: sf_bay.jpg (143 KB)


pdwarren
**


Feb 16, 2010, 9:52 AM

Post #14 of 66 (150487 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Let me offer my proposed formula for success in America's Cup 34.

BS + CS + TC + N + CFT = SUCCESS!

BS = BOAT SPEED: There's a definite need for speed, whether it comes from foil-enhanced large monohulls (a la the "Moth") or oversized versions of the Aussie 18 skiffs, plus wing sails - speed and action make for great viewing (in person or on video)

CS = CORPORATE SPONSORSHIP: Louis Vuitton, in my view, returns as prime sponsor of challenger elimination series; a multi-regatta, multi-continent lead-in series and a 3-month venue-specific elimination series would add promotional opportunities and attract prospective sponsors for the events and for the teams

TC = TIGHT COURSES: keeping the action between the players close - visually and geographically - for benefit of TV/Internet/In-person spectators

N = NATIONAL TEAMS: the America's Cup is, according to the deed, a competition "among nations." Organizers should tap into our collective national pride and take this event away from the "hired guns." There should be strict limitations on non-nationals on a team.

CFT = CONSUMER-FRIENDLY TECHNOLOGY: more heads-up displays, w/potential interfaces to the TV/Internet broadcasts so "we" can see the skipper's/tactician's data; return of on-board live video feeds; dual broadcast AND broadband access to the live media coverage -- AC 33 proved the broadband concept.

SUCCESS! = Defined by several elements including great racing + multi-national array of teams + millions of visitors to regatta sites (at "lead-up" regattas, challenger elimination regattas and AC 34 finals) + millions of viewers (broadcast & broadband) worldwide + major sponsorship support + great media coverage.

Other AC possibilities include creation of a development one-design class such as the International 14's; competitive bidding from potential America's Cup host venues (a la The Super Bowl and World Cup) with a long-range schedule of venues - Ras al-Khaimah/UAE, are you still out there?; a 2-year cycle between events, instead of the current 3-year plan

Anyone else have thoughts on what they'd like to see?

Paul D. Warren Redington Beach, FL


Mal
*****


Feb 16, 2010, 9:57 AM

Post #15 of 66 (150483 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dick enersen] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

While I think it would be possible to sail around both the prison and the point; the race would still have a windward leeward leg; by far the most critical mark on the map is the "unsympathetic government". Hard to sail around that. There are what's left of two, maybe three great possibilities for America's Cup village: Treasure Island, Alameda and maybe even Alcatraz. We'll see. Planning for AC 34 will certainly be interesting for a multihull and AC fan such as myself...
Check Six .......Mal


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 16, 2010, 10:47 AM

Post #16 of 66 (150463 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dick enersen] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

 The SF Bay is a tough sell. I was using Google Maps and it's small for battle of big fast boats. Roughly six miles vs. the 20 and 13 mile legs of the AC33. A six mile triangle around Alcatraz would be the biggest course that could be set. Don't know if that's enough room for a race for unlimited AC boats that are 40 to 115 feet per the Deed of Gift. As Enerson notes, that's through ship traffic lanes.

I guess the deal would be in the ocean off of SF?

And idea of city, state money for billionaires ball...not likely so where would the infrastructure be unless there was a bond issue to use it to create a Berkeley water front.

Some place in the US with Fremantle conditions in boats limited only by the Deed of Gift.

Fremantle with 115' trimarans going four times speed of wind...hmm....100 mph?

I'd stay up late for that...again.

The picture of USA-17 ghosting along at 22 knots in 2mph of wind...off San Diego...is probably the trailer for AC34.


Geologyinc
**

Feb 16, 2010, 10:57 AM

Post #17 of 66 (150455 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Thank you for the clarification in Item#2. I wasn't aware that the number of hulls was a determining factor, but rather it is a restricted range for the water-Line length of the yacht as determined by the number of masts it carries.

Question: Does the rule allow a multi-masted yacht which is allowed a longer water-line length to sail against a single-masted vessel that is restricted to a shorter water-line? My impression is that they could race one another but I'm not sure about that.

How do we resolve the issue of the Swiss' boat's "adjustable' water-line length by pumping in water to the stern sections of its hulls when it was being measured so that it met the 90-foot water-line requirement, but then pumping the water out so that it could race with a 110-foot waterline?

There is still the unresolved issue of where the Swiss sails were manufactured. I have always been uncomfortable with the requirement that the boat and its sails must be of native manufacture. Why can't the AC allow all the competitors equal access to the same technologies once and 'only if' they are in the public domain. Do we then impose the same requirement on the crews that they must all be 'native' citizens as well? It certainly isn't that way now. The crews are made up of the best international sailors whom can be obtained and attracted to join a challenger/defender team.

I think that if "speed" is to be the driving factor, then technologically speaking at this point in time, speed may favor the multi-hull over the mono-hull. That is until someone develops a 'super-sized' mono-hull windsurfer which may come sooner than we think. It's the technological difficulty of upsizing the scale of a windsurfer planing hull that will be a challenge while still making such a large planing mono-hull manageable in heavy ocean seas and chop. Plus tacking it would be interesting. I would think that it would have to have an adjustable center dagger-board or adjustable outer lee-board systems. How do you maintain a safe level for the center of gravity? So let us allow the technology 'geeks and 'tigers' some free rain and see what they may create.

I read in this blog series that someone mentioned the problem of sailing the series inside SF Bay. I thought I had read some where that the 'rules' of the AC prevented it being sailed in an enclosed bay area where high headlands existed. Wouldn't this eliminate SF Bay and force the races to be held more off-shore in the open Pacific Ocean? Or am I misinformed here, too?

As for the Venue, it should be held in a deep-water port that has strong local community support for the AC Challenge and sufficient marine docking, training and hotel/residential facilities in order to house & feed the multiple challenger teams and their support crews that such an event will incur. Plus the venue location must support a large spectator body. It should have good access to high quality transportation infrastructure (international airport(s), interstate highways, trains, buses, etc) so that supplies and people are easily and efficiently transported to where they need to go when they want to. And it wouldn't hurt if the venue site was located near a large cosmopolitan city which might help to attract and encourage spectators to come.



EaglesPDX
***

Feb 16, 2010, 11:40 AM

Post #18 of 66 (150445 views)
Shortcut
Re: [pdwarren] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

"Success" as in audience and media attention has been answered. Fremantle 1987 blew everyone away. It made EPSN and Gary Jobson was able to flog it for years to get sailing on main stream media. But it went back to the dull formula and ESPN dropped it. As the "unlimited" top of the food chain of sailing, AC has to go with fastest, most technically advanced. Exciting conditions in exciting boats. That always gets people's attention. Add in wild conditions and we'll see Fremantle buzz and audiences...sponsors follow the audience and the buzz.

As for people seeing the race up close. That never really happens. I've been to a couple and even on the media boats, everyone was inside watching it on Virtual Spectator. So the key is technology for the boats and for viewing the race. 50 ft 3D screens in the harbor (mix in America's Cup, Cowboys stadium screen and Avatar) so folks can watch the boats go out, sit in park and watch the race. Watch at home on TV or PC.

1. Technology. Give them something to watch. Biggest, baddest boats on the planet duking it out in wild conditions. Add a good dose of nationalism. What would the size of the worldwide audience be for China-US AC final in 115' trimarans in 20 knot wind off of SF? Sponsors might be interested in that audience.

2. Technology Give them a place to watch. Boats rigged with cams and virtual viewing. Big screens in the harbor for folks to watch in IMAX 3D. "And here's the view from inside Jimmy Spitalls heads up display". Home PC viewing which can do 3D. Be fun watching it play out literally on the desktop.

That could happen in SF with racing offshore but brought up close via tech.

A tad optimistic but doable...not going to happen with any version of AC monohulls. It's old slow tech that no one is interested in.


Geologyinc
**

Feb 16, 2010, 11:53 AM

Post #19 of 66 (150438 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I agree with you on those points. After all, look at the Winter Olympics. What will draw the larger audiences? Speed and dare-devil actions with helmet cameras to document them.

Who wants to be watching the AC Challenge on a spectator boat from five miles or more away in rolling seas and upchucking spectators all around you when you can be at home on stabile ground, dry, warm as a couch potatoe and swigging your favorite beer (wine, bourbon, scotch, tequela shots, etc.) while consuming inordinate amounts of pretzels and junk food without any concern for a tummy upset.


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 16, 2010, 2:38 PM

Post #20 of 66 (150397 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Geologyinc] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

More logistical. Even the media boats which follow alongside the race course (not the couple TV or photographer RIB's on the course) you can't really tell what is going on as far who is winning, you can't see action on the boat. Sailboat racing is made for TV and the VirtualEye or VirtualSpectator software is a necessity to tell who is winning.

So for SF to have the race out in the ocean vs in the bay is OK.


jrb
***

Feb 16, 2010, 6:46 PM

Post #21 of 66 (150367 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Virtual Eye (and related software) is as good as the assumptions made to create its programing. The program seems to be reasonably accurate when there is minimal separation. The more separation between the boats, the less accurate Virtual Eye becomes. For instance, A5 didn’t have the amount of lead credited to it on the latter portion of Leg #1 in Race #2. The rate at which USA17 was credited with closing on A5 in the few minutes prior to them coming close when nearing their respective layline tacks was unrealistic and probably physically impossible.


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 16, 2010, 7:45 PM

Post #22 of 66 (150361 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrb] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Didn't have access to VirtualEye during the race other than what LiveStream put in the screen when Montgomery, Lewis or Green were referring to it. They did not seem to have criticisms of its information. My own experience with Virtual Spectator dating from San Diego race to Auckland defenses was that it was accurate. Not a sail racer myself but crowd I was with were and again, never heard mention of any problems with the virtual representations. Everybody liked it and depended upon it. It's only going to get better and better. It's absolutely necessary when broadcasting race to the general public to have a virtual racing display to explain what is going on.


waiknot
****

Feb 16, 2010, 8:47 PM

Post #23 of 66 (150354 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Just thought as a proud kiwi I might add:

Virtual Eye from New Zealand
Harold Bennett, Kiwi
Pete Montgomery, Kiwi
Russell Coutts, Kiwi
Brad Butterworth, well you can't win them all he's a kiwi


willbaillieu
****

Feb 17, 2010, 1:53 AM

Post #24 of 66 (150336 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

 
“Tell ‘em they’re dreamin’!”
That's a line in a classic Australian movie “The Castle”. The same applies to what I am reading here about possible venues and scenarios for the 34th America’s Cup. You’re all dreamin’.
Much as we all love San Francisco, it is just not suitable for America’s Cup racing. The Bay is too small, and it is too badly affected by tides, inconsistent wind and fog.
The Cup should be sailed in the open ocean.
Unfortunately the victorious USA would not even be able to sail under the Golden Gate Bridge, which is about 10 feet or so too low, so San Fran may not even be suitable as an AC base.
I was interested to read what Harold Bennett said on the last day of racing. He reported that both teams had told him their boats were at their limits of wind and sea. They had both suffered warning alarms going off during Race 2.
So can we just get this straight? These boats were at their limits in 8 knots of breeze and 1 metre of sea? Pathetic.
It seems you want it all. People want giant multi hulls, capable of sailing at 35+ knots, in seas as big as Fremantle, in 20-25 knot breezes, in boats the size of USA yet affordable for all the Challenging syndicates. You also want billions of people to tune in.
Sorry to break the news people, but it ain’t going to happen. These boats cost hundreds of million each, and they are strictly speaking unseaworthy boats. We were lucky to even get them out onto the track. They are interesting, spectacular freaks.
There is also a lot of rubbish being written about how fascinated the public was with this match. The public was not in the least interested. A mere 200,000 people watched it live and free on the internet.
The final of AC32 was watched by more than 4 billion people!
AC32 was a great success, and the last race of the AC final was possibly the greatest AC race ever. It was match racing at its finest. It was close, and dramatic. Many venues worldwide had taken part in the preliminary Acts. Interest was intense, yet these boats were the so called “slow boats”. Monohulls.
The saddest thing about this last DoG match was the absence of match racing. A complete mismatch, where the only drama was the suspense about whether the rigs would fall down or the boats break up. There was no match racing; no close encounters, no tacking duels. There were no big men in the middle, making these monsters go, with muscle and grunt. No cunning, no guile. No bow calls.
I enjoyed watching the speed of the boats and the extraordinary performance of the wing, but the contest itself? Boring. It was non existent. As predicted it was all over in the first 15 minutes.
I hope sanity prevails.





waiknot
****

Feb 17, 2010, 3:35 AM

Post #25 of 66 (150326 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Will,
have just read your last post and am pleased to say we finally agree on something, or basicly everything you said in this post
See my post on the thread Cory E. Friedman: IS THIS A DEED OF GIFT MATCH OR WHAT?"

As for the dreaming, hey BOR just won the cup, everybody's excited and I think sanity is already on the design drawing boards. but we saw a race on the water and the early plans for 34 are looking good.

What about the efforts of Harold's so called helpers on the start boat?





jrb
***

Feb 17, 2010, 9:42 AM

Post #26 of 66 (150210 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Race #2, as A5 and USA17 approached the windward mark, virtual programs were reporting A5 with a lead of 300++ meters. That virtual gap literally closed to a few meters in a matter of seconds. Didn’t actually happen. A hiccup in the programing related to assumptions on wind shifts and puffs. Still, usually a useful tool.


Mal
*****


Feb 17, 2010, 10:03 AM

Post #27 of 66 (150208 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I really think there is a good compromise between a $100 mil 90' tri and the IACC tub. As far as being able to handle the conditions; it's just a matter of setting the venue and date and the boats will be designed to the conditions. After all, that's what happened in 33; A5 even tried to design to even lighter conditions in the Emirates. The Deed defines the America's cup niche and that niche is nationality, technology, and challenge and defend. It only sets some very general limits. Beyond that it specifies agreement between challenger and defender. The success or failure of the contest depends on the foresight and negotiations of the contestants. If one is seeking national pride, fame, fortune, money, an audience; AC 33 was admittedly a dismal failure. If one is seeking a test of technology and the skill to sail it; it was, by far, the best cup match ever.

The IACC boats might or might not have had anything to do with the "success" of AC 32. I think wide participation generating national or even company pride was more responsible. What would happen to the general interest in the races if the boats had been much faster and maybe even a little more prone to failure, on the edge, if you will?

So where is the floor and where is the ceiling? AC 33 was, pretty obviously the ceiling but the expense ruined participation. The Olympics are a good example of the floor; practically anybody can participate and lots of national pride but no technology little spectacle.

Hopefully the Americans and the Italians can come up with a good compromise and will get input from as many potential participants as possible. Enough tech so the boats will be fast and the racing exiting to more than just sailors. Little enough tech that most every country has an entity that can build a boat or two. Enough limits that the boats will be close to equivalent but enough latitude that there is room for innovation. Enough latitude in participation and in country construction that sailors from around the world can participate but enough limits that the Fiat boat will be recognized as Italian and the Chevy boat as from the USA. I hope everyone will compromise on their individual narrow view of sailing and come up with something that generates lots of interest in sailing but still recognises the basic principles of the Deed of Gift that has kept the Cup alive and mostly well all these years.

My vote is for a 60'X60' max boat with fixed mast of a max height, human powered with sails. It should have a minimum weight and max draft such that it can be easily built even of fiberglass. Most of the other obvious high tech avenues for improvement must be plugged. All the standards should be outlawed: changing hull shape, movable ballast, a mast that is really a wing and so on. Mono cat or tri; build what you want but no one will build a mono.
Check Six .......Mal


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 17, 2010, 10:57 AM

Post #28 of 66 (150202 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

SF can certainly do it.

1. There's a lot of ocean out there, lot of wind also.
2. Eyup boats have to fit under the bridge...design constraint one.
3. Boats have to survive conditions of venue...design constraint two. Lots of racing sailboats can handle it. Big cats and multis do it all the time. Fremantle showed you have to build boat to survive or you lose race.
4. "4 billion watched AC final"...that's silly...half the planet was not watching sail boat racing. ESPN long ago dropped sailing. Versus picked it up as dead air filler with limited cable access market. Fremantle is the gold standard when ESPN did its dead air filler and woke up with millions of American viewers. Coutts and others mentioned it. Ellison went into need to get the Fremantle viewers back and noted the demographic of new to sailing viewers for AC33 and why. AC33 was not marketed, no challenger series, too many differences to list.

Dick Enerson noted the single biggest impediment for SF, city/state will not build them a venue as happened in Auckland and Valencia. Shame Ellison doesn't do a Bill Gates and spend a biilion to build a zero net energy floating city to create a Berkeley water front and cup venue. Be a great legacy for a guy with $28B.

San Diego is probably it with multihulls since only multihulls can make a sailboat race in San Diego half way interesting. Pic of USA-17 doing 20k in 2k wind. Not the Fremantle in multi's that SF would be but no way SF/CA is going to help out with a venue...though I hope to be surprised.

I'll leave you with this from a (formerly) committed mono huller you may recognize. It's on front page of Scuttlebutt.

Coutts, who has won the America’s Cup four times for his home country, Switzerland and the U.S, said today he had changed his mind about multihulls and now thinks they might be a good idea for the next cup. “Only a couple of months ago, I was pretty strong that it should return to a monohull, but the racing was pretty spectacular, and maybe we should give multihulls consideration,” he said.


willbaillieu
****

Feb 17, 2010, 12:18 PM

Post #29 of 66 (150189 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

 
4. "4 billion watched AC final"...that's silly...half the planet was not watching sail boat racing.

See this:
http://32nd.americascup.com/en/news/detail.php?extended=0&idPage=0&idRubr=22&idIndex=0&idContent=28983

You are right. There were only 2.7 Billion viewers for the Final series.
Total of over 4 Billion for the entire event over 3 years.
My mistake.





EaglesPDX
***

Feb 17, 2010, 1:24 PM

Post #30 of 66 (150182 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Nope. Per the link you supplied the magical "4 billion" was total viewers over three years...take 10 million viewers multiply by 400 clicks on the remote, divide by three years. Same for the magical 2.7B which was not cup final but final year (see below).

ESPN dropped AC in the US long ago. Fremantle needed no promotion and got millions in the US and that was at o'dark o'clock in US. The fact that millions in US stayed up all night watching Fremantle was a story in itself.

I've had to sell the jazzed up composite numbers to marketing folks. They cut right through them. If we want ESPN and sponsors to even take the call, think Fremantle conditions, Pacific Time zone. Fastest, most technologically advanced boats in the world. As Coutt said "fantastic racing". US vs. China Olympic type nationalism. That's a show worth watching, a race worth sponsoring.

The big multi's of AC33 answered all the questions. Debunked, as PJ Montgomery put it, all the objections. Time for the Cup to step into the 21st century.

TV (provisional data)
  • Viewers: over 4 000 million (total since 2004)
    2007 season: over 2 700 million
    Broadcast hours: over 4 500 hours (total since 2004)
    2007 season: over 2 500 hours
  • Networks: over 100
    Rights Holders: 36
  • Countries reached: over 150
  • Production: 400 hours and over 33 cameras



John Ramsay
*

Feb 18, 2010, 12:06 AM

Post #31 of 66 (149205 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Given that most Americans would like to see the Cup sailed in US waters, why not stage the regatta in Hawaii. The time zone would allow those on the east coast of the US to watch after work and even Californians will only have to skip off from work at lunchtime. The weather conditions generally give 20 knots of breeze and the mid-Pacific swells are wonderful. I did a couple of Clipper Cups back in the 1980s and they were a blast.
The islands are set up for tourism and there is lots of dock space in Pearl Harbour to build an America's Cup village.
It is probably too rough for multihulls -- but I'm a mono hull sailor and multihull fans will probably say I don't know my ear from my elbow.
Dennis Connor trained for Fremantle in Hawaii and he did OK off Rottnest Island.


peterrugg
**

Feb 18, 2010, 5:51 AM

Post #32 of 66 (148672 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dick enersen] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I believe the DoG required an ocean or open water course where local knowledge is minimized, like Rhode Island Sound or Freemantle. Inside San Francisco bay will not do for all the reasons you stated. Your diagram suggests that outside the mouth of the bay is too rough. However - i doubt it is on average rougher than the Freemantle Doctor. If the abandoned piers could be made over into suitable support bases, why not have LV Cup and AC34 outside?


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 18, 2010, 6:21 AM

Post #33 of 66 (148548 views)
Shortcut
Re: [John Ramsay] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

"It is probably too rough for multihulls"

You mean too rough for the big multihulls that do all the around the world races in the roughest conditions?





EaglesPDX
***

Feb 18, 2010, 6:27 AM

Post #34 of 66 (148525 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterrugg] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

" If the abandoned piers could be made over into suitable support bases, why not have LV Cup and AC34 outside?"

In the post race Wall Street Journal interview, Ellison said he would be talking to SF Mayor Newsome about exactly that, finding a spot to build a venue.

Ellison was big on the Moet Cup races between Oracle and Alinghi held in SF Bay in AC boats. I think outside in big multi-hulls in Fremantle conditions is the way to go.

Ellsion talked of rigging the boats with cams and mics, along with virtual tracking, having the race in the ocean in exciting conditions with no limits is the way to go. The races are always out of site anyway in Valencia, Auckland (yes you could see it in the distance but not really SEE it), San Diego, Fremantle and Newport. TV, rigging the boats, virtual software are what brings the race to millions.



Vince Casalaina
*

Feb 18, 2010, 12:25 PM

Post #35 of 66 (147717 views)
Shortcut
Re: [dick enersen] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Over the years, people who’ve race for the Cup have floated a number of radical ideas to revamp the racing format of the Cup. One of those ideas was developed specifically to allow America’s Cup racing inside San Francisco Bay.

The idea is to have multiple short races each day with each pair racing in a "first to 2" series for the points for the day. Why does this idea fit San Francisco Bay?

If the racing took place on much shorter courses, it would be possible to fit more courses onto the limited real estate we have to work with in San Francisco Bay. In addition, since the AC boats are purpose built, it would be possible to limit their draft so that we could push the courses further towards the edge of the Bay – creating lanes for Ferries and commercial shipping -- and maybe even the chance for a few wipe outs in our fresh summer breezes.

I’ve attached a .jpg file with a potential layout for four non-overlapping course on San Francisco Bay each with 1.5 mile beats. The potential course would be W-L twice around - finish downwind - for a total of 6 mi. 3 races for the day would total 18 miles - which has been the norm for a day’s racing in the past few mutual consent cups.

It would be possible to schedule the AC racing so that different circles were vacant on weekend days. That would let the hometown racers sail on the courses that they know and love while keep enough real estate open for the AC boats to train & compete.

The boats used in this configuration could be smaller than 90' and could have fewer crew than 17. A boat going 8 kt upwind would do the course in about 25 min. in summer conditions. Each of the circles could hold two sets of three races each day.

There can be some great racing in purpose built 44' boats. just look at how the RC44 has taken off. Purpose built AC Boats would be design driven within a rule, not One Design racers. Making it a box rule would leave plenty of room for innovation in hull, foils and sails. This would definitely not be just another stop on the World Match Race Tour where identical OD boats are always used.

Are there some additional advantages to short course racing for the America’s Cup?

Because the courses would need to be shorter, the racing would put a much higher premium on crew work than raw boat speed. The biggest difference is that when you are turning corners often, you need the very best crew to maximize your maneuvers. You cannot count on grinding down an opponent if your boat is 0.5% faster on a 15 minute beat.

I like the idea that the America's Cup might actually be decided on the basis of how good a crew you have rather than on what technologic advance you can make (the tri with the wing was awesome but it made for some fairly boring racing once BOR captured the lead.)

Let's think outside the box when thinking about whether we can hold a Cup here. Let's make sure we are looking into the future rather than just trying to replicate what's been done in the past.

- Vince Casalaina


Attachments: Bay 4 Course Map crop.JPG (113 KB)


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 18, 2010, 12:56 PM

Post #36 of 66 (147685 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Vince Casalaina] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Trying to make the boats fit the physical racing limitations of SF Bay imposes a LOT of limits that go against the basis of the America's Cup as the biggest, fastest boats technology and each nation can build.

It sounds like Ellison's personal preference is based on his Moet race in SF Bay vs. Alinghi in AC 32 size boats.

This would appeal to other syndicates such TNZ etc. who have investment and experience in old AC32 boats vs. ramping up to unlimited multihulls against BMW/Oracle and Alinghi who now have years of development and experience. Flip side is SF ocean race would require all new boats so even in unlimited multihulls per the Deed of Gift, Oracle and Alinghi would be starting from scratch to some degree.


Mal
*****


Feb 19, 2010, 3:27 PM

Post #37 of 66 (146939 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Remember the DoG doesn't call for a 90' boat if the challenger and defender agree on something different. The boat could be, indeed should be designed for the conditions. I do hope it will be cheap enough to allow lots of participation but big enough to provide speed and excitement. I hope that Louis Vitton will participate in the challenger series and I sure would like to see a defender series as well, as the NYYC did years ago. I suspect, however that Mr Ellison has too much invested to allow a series that might bump him out of contention before the Cup race even occurs. Though I am rooting for multihulls, I suspect that once the excitement of 33 wears off, the mono hulls will return.
Check Six .......Mal


EaglesPDX
***

Feb 19, 2010, 4:13 PM

Post #38 of 66 (146930 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Ellison has said there will be a Defenders series if any yacht clubs want to step up.

America's Cup should be the pinnacle of racing, the biggest, fastest, most technologically advanced boats that fit within the length/mast constraints of the Deed of Gift. Whatever anybody wants to show up in that fits the Deed of Gift. There are plenty of limited single class racing series already. We don't need another one.


Manu244
*


Feb 19, 2010, 5:51 PM

Post #39 of 66 (146915 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Thoughts on the threads:
1) SF will be awesome as a AC Race site!!!! Is there any doubt that the FIRST defense will be held in SF. I vote for MAUI for the second defense site - yes, macadamia nut pancakes and dirty oj's!
2) I've always been a multi-hull freak so I'm happy that SF will be the place that the AC boats finally come out of the closet, and as a fleet show their second, and (gasp), third hull.
3) EB - (Isildur, throw the ring into the lava!) you fell into the oh so predictable pattern of doing anything to keep The Cup. I am encouraged that Now you're worried about fairness - just goes to show that losing The Cup can bring out the best in people.
4) I've followed the AC action since I was a lad many, many moons ago, and I am more excited now about the future of the AC than I was when it went Down Under.
Thank You Mr. E!
Manu244
Surf City South, USA


rt_/)
***

Feb 20, 2010, 11:38 AM

Post #40 of 66 (146822 views)
Shortcut
Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

With apologies to multi-hull fans, the almost complete lack of tactics in AC33 was disappointing. Cats & tris are notoriously poor at maneuvers and that tends to take away tactics such as covering. Straight-line speed is undoubtedly exciting for the crews on the boats; not so much for spectators when the competitors are miles apart. If you have to look at speedometers to see how the race is going, it's a dull experience.

Just as the Winter Olympics showcase biathlon, curling, ice dancing and other arcane sports almost no one understands -- the America's Cup is, potentially, the event to bring new sailors into the game. For reasons much hashed over, AC33 didn't do it (only one tactical situation in 79 miles of sailing). Now, reasonable people with an eye on sailing's future have a chance to bring it back into the spotlight. The average Joe non-sailor needs close crossings, tacking duels & obvious lead changes to get excitied about the sport. Let's hope AC34 provides more drama.

-rt_/)


Viewing the Forums: No members and guests
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 


Search for (options) Contact Forum Forum FAQS Markup Tags Forum Rules