Scuttlebutt Website SCUTTLEBUTT
SAILING NEWS
ForumIndex CLASSIFIED ADS Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG IN         

Forum Index: .: Dock Talk:
Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status
Team McLube

 



Max
**

Jan 30, 2010, 1:33 AM

Post #1 of 36 (62735 views)
Shortcut
Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status Log-In to Post/Reply

Now that the New York courts are not to become involved until after the racing, I'm left without an answer to what is no doubt a really basic question about the Alinghi NOR: the wave/wind restrictions appear both inherently odd in themselves (I realise that these boats are not like anything anyone's ever raced before, but 1 metre waves?) and - according to Sir Russell Coutts - do appear to favour the particular design characteristics of Alinghi to a gross degree.

If that's permitted - and I realise that one shouldn't lightly presume that Alinghi's actions are in fact compliant with the DoG - doesn't that really mean that a defender can skew conditions to suit its boat - which doesn't have to be declared until well after a challenger is committed to design settings - in every case? Or is this just a rerun of Mr Bertarelli's complaints about racing in any wind not optimal for his boat, as allowed TNZ its couple of wins over Alinghi in the last regatta?


waiknot
****

Jan 30, 2010, 12:07 PM

Post #2 of 36 (62722 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Hi Max,
I have to agree with all your observations. While I believe all would agree that the DOG does favor the defender, which does add a certain extra to any challenge. However Alinghi does appear to require more advantages than the DOG provides.
Also Alinghi's boat was designed to race at the DOG noncomplient RAK with light winds, hence the need to recreate these conditions.
I too am curious about Alinghi's right to instigate these artificial sailing conditions, it appears that no one has challenged it. My feeling is BOR are confident enough not to challenge or at last Alinghi have ground BOR down with their constant cheating or maybe Alinghi can do it.


jrb
***

Jan 30, 2010, 9:50 PM

Post #3 of 36 (62702 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

While I would rather hope not, I believe the Alinghi side will prevail on this point, if the question is ultimately answered in court. The problem is that precedent has long been set for Defenders to specify artificially low wind limits. I think the last AC with ďmasculineĒ (no slight to females intended) wind limits was held in 1987? It is high time that AC yachts compete in wind conditions commonly enjoyed by club racers competing in Optimists or Lasers.

Edit: Court will not rule pre scheduled match. This issue, and others, is in now in the hands of the race jury. Let's see how they rule.





willbaillieu
****

Feb 3, 2010, 12:08 AM

Post #4 of 36 (62643 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

America's Cup boats have always been designed to take advantage of the particular conditions of the Competition venue. This usually requires difficult and controversial judgement calls in the design briefs of the Defending and Challenging syndicates.
Fremantle 12s in no way resembled Newport 12s. Most Newport 12s would have sunk out on Gage Roads.
Getting it right was an art. If the conditions were out of ordinary, a boat could struggle. Sometimes Challengers got it wrong. One Australia could not handle the chop in San Diego, broke in half and sank.
Even Defenders can get it wrong. The Kiwis broke their IACC boat in the Hauraki Gulf in 2003 at the start of their second AC defence. They were lucky not to sink in one race. They had planned for lighter conditions.
Why is it a surprise that the Swiss Defender has a boat suited to conditions in RAK? That's where they believed the Cup contest would be held.
In the end, these ridiculous multi hulls are so cumbersome and so dangerous that they will prove themselves totally unsuited to a Cup contest anyway.
They will also be unevenly matched. The Cup will most likely be decided at the first mark of the first race. Which boat will that be? No idea. Don't care. Just want it out of the way.
Even with reasonably "matched" boats like 12 Metres or the IACC boats, there were sometimes striking differences in speed. In 1974 I watched Courageous march to the top mark, with Southern Cross sailing about 10 deg lower. It was all over in 20 minutes.
I don't get why people get all riled about safety limits being placed on sailing conditions for this match. It is just another unfortunate consequence of having a DoG match in stupid boats.
These unproven boats could break up in anything other than a ripple, and their monstrous rigs will not handle strong winds. Their sailing abilities are still mostly theoretical.
In the end isn't it better to have a sailing contest?it the best against the best and see what happens. Match racing does not need speed, it needs tactics and luck and great boat handling skills by the best crews money can buy.
While I look forward to seeing the back of these freak boats, with their obscene budgets, I don't actually want to see anyone killed during an America's Cup Contest. I am sure nobody else does either.
These are light air boats, both of them. So let them sail in light air and flat water. At least let's see if there can be a contest out there.
After this (un)match, let's take the Deed of Gift and put it in a glass case in the America's Cup Museum. It was written with a genuine belief in fair play and good will. Unfortunately, that is just not enough these days. Those values have been blown out of the water, by lawyers.
A new America's Cup protocol needs to be written that protects the interests of both Defender and Challenger, and helps restore the AC to its rightful place as the pinnacle sailing event.





Rob Carver
*

Feb 3, 2010, 5:13 AM

Post #5 of 36 (62617 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Well written Will, I'll view these massive "light air" machines in a different light now.
I've really enjoyed your thoughts and informative observations on the America's Cup over the last few months although I don't always agree with you.
I'm an AC junkie having read every word from every court transcript, every affidavit, every opinion and every press release... from both sides however I value this forum and your down to earth opinion also that of max, waiknot, jrb etc.
Hope there's more to come over the next few weeks and AC34.
( if only... SNG had kept the same protocol governing AC32 )


Max
**

Feb 3, 2010, 5:15 AM

Post #6 of 36 (62616 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

While I've nothing to compare to Will's standing in the sport, I must say that I'm relieved that the ISAF jury has kicked the Alinghi wave/wind limits (or, as Alinghi puts it "The Jury also ruled that the Deed of Gift shall prevail over any other conflicting rule and the SNG will amend the Notice of Race (NOR) and Sailing Instructions (SI) to further reinforce this").

It's one thing to design to venue conditions (particularly after having seen TNZ submerge in their own backyard in the first 2003 race), but surely another to try to pigeonhole a very narrow wind/wave state. Without ignoring the impact on the Cup and the prospect that one boat or other will probably walk it 2-0, it is surely more creditable that BOR is apparently coping with 8-22 kt (and was reportedly designed with that sort of versatility as a primary objective), rather than the contrivance of what looks like an exceptionally light air boat.

As to Alinghi having designed for RAK - I know that they've run through a lot of successive lawyers, but would be sure that all of them would have pointed out the hemisphere restrictions - so A has only itself to blame for trying that one on (as with many, many other failed "innovations").


peterbrown77
***


Feb 6, 2010, 2:53 PM

Post #7 of 36 (62493 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Well, it is nice to see that SNG's ridiculous wind limits have been tossed. Trying to recreate RAK in the Med in February is ridiculous. I think what hasn't been mentioned here is that it negates Alinghi/SNG's huge, unfair, and illegal advantage they gained by going against their word after CNEV was tossed as Challenger. To wit, the Defender is supposed to have 10 MONTHS notice to be ready to race. Alinghi have had 2 1/2 years! They saw what Oracle was building in the interim, kept demanding their silly Custom House Registry, and then picked a venue that would not advantage their yacht, but would disadvantage Oracle's. They saw BOR90 was heavy air, so they built a light air boat and chose a venue. It was a slimy move and I'm glad it bit them in the ass. All this delay-delay-delay by Alinghi is reason enough to claim breach of fudiciary duty.

I don't know why you think USA-17 will not stand the conditions, Will. I saw a video of them beating upwind in 22 knots true. The boat handled it with aplomb. We'll see if A5 is as robust.

Another interesting side note is that OneAustralia did not so much sink because of the chop but because of a broken main halyard winch! Since the crew couldn't raise the main with it, they led the halyard through a turning block back to a winch in the cockpit, and ground it from there. This placed a bending moment on the hull that it was not designed to withstand, and all it needed was one good whack to fold the hull in half, and have the keel box rip right out of the bottom.


waiknot
****

Feb 6, 2010, 6:56 PM

Post #8 of 36 (62486 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Agreed the wind limit had to go. however have Alinghi been a bit slimy starting the race early at 10 am . We all know the wind doesn't really build to the afternoon. they could still get their light wind race with the racing over before the wind builds for the day.


peterbrown77
***


Feb 7, 2010, 4:24 AM

Post #9 of 36 (62470 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Well, they're on firm ground with the DoG. It imposes a 7 hour time limit. Sunset on Monday is around 5:30 pm, so if you work it backwards from that, you wind up around 10:30 am. Not that either of these boats will need 7 hours to cover 40 miles, but it says what it says.

I don't think Harold Bennett is going to raise the start flag until it is stable enough to race anyway, and according to the VPP results just published in Sail magazine, anything over 8 knots is going to have USA winning in a walk.


willbaillieu
****

Feb 8, 2010, 4:56 AM

Post #10 of 36 (62443 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I watched Ernesto at the "one man" press conference. So where WAS Larry? Last week Ernesto even offered to share a bottle of champagne if he lost. No response? Come on Larry, there was good will on offer.
Cory Friedman asked Brad Butterworth about the 1 metre wave limit. Cory commented that even dinghies could sail in 2 metre waves.
All Brad needed to do was ask Cory if he had ever sailed a boat at 40 knots into 1 metre waves. Instead, he showed why he really should not do the press conference thing. He waffled on instead of answering the question.
Here is my answer. It is about safety. These boats can sail extremely fast, and no one wants to see anyone killed by a rig coming down. No one really knows what will happen if they hit waves at extreme speed. Simple as that.
The limit affects both boats the same. It makes sense.
Waiting, waiting, waiting. Harold will keep us waiting all week if he needs to. Everyone must be feeling very frustrated. It is nearly midnight and I am tired.


peterbrown77
***


Feb 8, 2010, 5:06 PM

Post #11 of 36 (62415 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Will, I watched the Russell/Larry/Jimmy news conference, the day before the "Owner's Press Conference". Larry was asked by the media if he would be attending the owner's conference. His response was that Alinghi "excluded Russell by name", and therefore - if Russell couldn't go, in a show of solidarity with his skipper - Larry wouldn't go. Half the press applauded the decision. Larry repeated this at least three times during the conference.

At the owner's conference, Ernesto made a big deal about Larry not being there, and Alinghi released a statement saying that it was a misunderstanding, in that it was an 'owner's conference' and Russell wasn't an owner. However, at this "owner's conference", Alinghi's skipper Butterworth was allowed to speak - and I don't think he owns A5. So what was the big deal about Russell?

Additionally, Ernesto had fully 24 hours to correct any "misunderstanding" between he and Larry regarding the joint press conference and failed to do so. So, do you really believe that Russell was not specifically excluded from attending? Or do you think that Ernesto is playing with the truth again?

I know what I think.

ps. You know full well that light wind favors A5 - it does not affect both boats the same. Did you read about what the measurers had to do to make A5 legal to race? Pump all the ballast aft, to get her waterline to under 90 feet by pulling the bows out of the water. However, they are then allowed to re-ballast fore and aft. A5 is not a Deed compliant boat.





willbaillieu
****

Feb 8, 2010, 5:38 PM

Post #12 of 36 (62410 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
Will, I watched the Russell/Larry/Jimmy news conference, the day before the "Owner's Press Conference". Larry was asked by the media if he would be attending the owner's conference. His response was the Alinghi "excluded Russell by name", and therefore - if Russell couldn't go, in a show of solidarity with his skipper - Larry wouldn't go. Half the press applauded the decision. Larry repeated this at least three times during the conference.

At the owner's conference, Ernesto made a big deal about Larry not being there, and Alinghi released a statement saying that it was a misunderstanding, in that it was an 'owner's conference' and Russell wasn't an owner. However, at this "owner's conference", Alinghi's skipper Butterworth was allowed to speak - and I don't think he owns A5. So what was the big deal about Russell?

Additionally, Ernesto had fully 24 hours to correct any "misunderstanding" between he and Larry regarding the joint press conference and failed to do so. So, do you really believe that Russell was not specifically excluded from attending? Or do you think that Ernesto is playing with the truth again?

I know what I think.

ps. You know full well that light wind favors A5 - it does not affect both boats the same. Did you read about what the measurers had to do to make A5 legal to race? Pump all the ballast aft, to get her waterline to under 90 feet by pulling the bows out of the water. However, they are then allowed to re-ballast fore and aft. A5 is not a Deed compliant boat.



peterbrown77
***


Feb 8, 2010, 5:40 PM

Post #13 of 36 (62408 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Ummm - that's just reposting what I said..


willbaillieu
****

Feb 8, 2010, 5:50 PM

Post #14 of 36 (62403 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Fair dinkum Pete, you make a meal out of this. Larry should have been at the owner's conference, end of story.
It should have been Ernesto and Larry. No one else. Who gives a f...k about Russell not being invited?
It was a great opportunity missed to take some of the steam out of this conflict.
Ernesto said he felt stupid being the only one up there, so he invited Brad to answer a question. no big deal, except Brad is all over the place. I agree with you there. Brad should stick to sailing.
Hey, measuring these stupid boats was always going to be controversial. They are freaks. They are totally different. One has three hulls, one has two. One has a solid wing and one has two sails. They both have diesel engines. Hell, they both have water ballast too, and wind radar and one has some sort of fluid friction reduction device. How do you measure all that?
Why bother?
Let's just hope there is some breeze so we can get it over with.


peterbrown77
***


Feb 9, 2010, 2:27 AM

Post #15 of 36 (62379 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Yeah, sure Will - I guess whatever you say, goes. Take another gratuitous swipe at Larry, be shown that you're completely off-base, then accuse someone else of making "a meal" out of the issue of your own creation. Thrown in an expletive or two, and you're correct again. End of story.

On the issue of measuring "these stupid boats", you ought to get some perspective. The DoG is pretty darn simple when it comes to defining what boats are eligible to race. In fact, there are only two requirements: First, there is a load waterline length requirement, dependent upon how many masts the boat has. Second, there is a requirement that the boats be built in the country their yacht club represents.

Alinghi can't meet EITHER requirement. Are they stupid? Can't they read? Did something get lost in the translation from English? Or are they cheating? A5 does not meet the waterline length requirement (pretty simple on a cat). A5 does not meet the CiC requirement either. Maybe you ought to start casting some barbs at your hero, Ernesto Bertarelli, for a little change of pace.





willbaillieu
****

Feb 9, 2010, 4:30 AM

Post #16 of 36 (62359 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

You sure seem to be an angry man Pete. You've sure got it in for me.
First of all, Larry did not show at a conference for two. What can I say? Ernesto turned up and sat there on his own. That seems to have offended you. I would have thought it rude not to turn up. Take it up with Larry not me.
Second, the measurers have already passed both boats as compliant. Got an argument with that? Take it up with the measurers, who are highly experienced officials, not connected with either syndicate. Obviously you know better.
Thirdly, Alinghi have consistently stated that their sails are built in Switzerland. You already know that, but you just choose to ignore it.
And you already know there is yet to be a ruling on whether sails are even to be included in the CiC requirement, so the whole issue may well be irrelevant anyway.
A BMW diesel motor. That's built in the USA, right? You know what they say about people in glass houses.
Pete, you seem to be jumping the gun in these matters. Maybe you know something we don't know?
What I know is that in your eyes Larry Ellison can do no wrong. If that's the way you feel about him, good luck to you. I hope he finally finds success on the water that has so far eluded him.
He's already announced that he will protest if he loses this match, so he still has a chance to win in Court even if he loses on the water. Right?
Meanwhile Ernesto Bertarelli will be taking the helm on his own boat during the races. That probably offends you even more.


waiknot
****

Feb 9, 2010, 1:12 PM

Post #17 of 36 (62326 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Hi guys,
as for the one man owners conference, i don't know what happened there. what i do know is I wouldn't want to share a stage and press conference with a man who struggles with the truth and reality either.
As for the legality of Alinghi sails BOR wanted it clarified before the race but Alinghi argued it should be sorted in court after the race. so whos fault is it that we may end up in court after the race???
As for the BMW engine on USA 15, the origin of the engine is only speculation.

Willl as for Pete having it in for you, I think Pete like me can't believe you talk such crap as if you are an authority on the topic. Yes you have sailed in an America's Cup as a grinder and i am envious that you had that opportunity. however that does not make you an expert on the topic.


peterbrown77
***


Feb 9, 2010, 3:34 PM

Post #18 of 36 (62315 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Will, I don't have it in for anyone. However, there are the facts of the matter regarding the Cup - and then there is your interpretation of them. They don't share a lot in common. If you think that makes me an "angry man", you're free to do so.

"Rude" is inviting your opponent to a press conference, but specifically telling him to not bring his skipper along - and then bringing your own.

Second, the measurers only passed A5 because their only recourse would have been to DSQ them, and they didn't want to be in Bertarelli's legal crosshairs - so , yeah - I have a problem with that.

Alinghi have "consistently stated their sails are built in Switzerland"? What about the affadavit from Tom Whidden that North built the sails, shipped them to Switzerland, and then Alinghi glued the three pieces together? Guess what - Alinghi have consistently said a LOT of things. They've consistently lied about a lot of things too!

Your statement on the engine is pure speculation. I highly doubt Oracle would jeopardize their CiC by using a German engine. The reason they're not saying anything about it is probably not to embarrass BMW. Oracle has been pretty scrupulous about following the Deed, whereas Alinghi doesn't even appear to have passing acquaintance with it.

As for protesting if he loses - Alinghi had the chance to resolve the CiC issue TWICE - once in Singapore, and then by asking the court to wait until after the race. If Ellison has to go back to New York, the fault is solely Bertarelli's.





willbaillieu
****

Feb 10, 2010, 12:25 AM

Post #19 of 36 (62279 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

For all the Larry Fan Boys out there, settle down. This shemozzle is not my fault. Itís supposed to be about sailing. Anyway itís all about to happen. Iím betting one boat will be substantially faster than the other.
Ernesto presented himself at the ownersí press conference; Larry refused to go.
Ernesto has offered to share a bottle of champagne if he loses; Larry says he will go to Court if he loses.
Ernesto will steer his own boat; Larry will not be on board.
Ernesto built a boat he believed suited the conditions in RAK. Now there is light air in Valencia, he must be happy.
Larry built a boat he believed suited the conditions off Valencia. But now there is light air, he must be unhappy.
Thereís plenty to say about these two men.
Both of them suffer from born to rule complexes, no doubt brought on by their obscene wealth. One of them at least, is used to getting his own way, always.
Between them they have done their best to wreck this wonderful event.
The effects of their petulant quarrelling on Americaís Cup is summed up pretty well here:
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/billionaire_brats_8PfqS46T0Xgvh7UhBkY7ZM
Oh and I think it is common knowledge there is a BMW diesel aboard USA. They are made in Germany. If it were a CiC motor we would have heard by now. Donít know what sort of engine is on A5. Probably a Yanmar. They are made in Japan. Will it make a difference to the races? Does anyone care?


jrb
***

Feb 10, 2010, 2:49 PM

Post #20 of 36 (62210 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Will,

If your primary argument is that is should be all about the sailing, then several of your comments make little sense.

WRT the press conference, thatís not sailing. Both Bertarelli and Ellison could have acted better. If they each are looking to score points, sort of like schoolgirls arguing about who slighted whom first, then I say ignore them. Again, a press conference is not sailing.

It appears Alinghi 5 cannot measure in unless it loads with water ballast well aft and pops a wheelie to reduce its max loaded waterline to 90í. I donít have a problem with them measuring in that way, if they intend to sail with the ballast carried in a similar position wrt how the boat was measured. The problem is that Alinghi 5 cannot sail/race with the ballast positioned anywhere near where it was when measured, and the result is that Alinghi 5 will have a loaded waterline well longer than 90í when racing. The boat is not deed compliant. Major screw-up by the design team btw.

If Bertarelli want to helm his boat, then thatís fine. If Ellison wants Spithill to helm his boat, then thatís fine too.

Where each trimming engine was built is subject to speculation. I can easily understand if BMW-Oracle does not announce it is using an engine other than a BMW, so as not to embarrass its sponsor. Maybe it is a BMW diesel engine, and maybe it is not? Alinghi has not declared its engine. Itís possible, but doubtful that the engine aboard Alinghi was constructed/manufactured in Switzerland. Each side may be equally compliant or non-compliant on the issue of the engines. Heck one might comply and the other mioght not? Who knows? Not you and not me.

Weíll have to wait to see what wind conditions these multi-hull race in. That will be up to Harold Bennett, the PRO. He seems to have some stones and the benefit of being respected by key members of both competing teams. Next try is Friday.

Edit: Cory Friedman's latest article (Part 58) is persuasive.
I take back those nice things I said about Harold Bennett. It appears he should just start a race. If one of the boats gets across the finish line before the other, and within the seven (7) hour time limit, then that boat wins the race. It also appears races should be started every other day, until a winner is decided. Only mutual consent by both teams should be able to postpone a race. Cory Friedman explains much better than me. See his article





waiknot
****

Feb 10, 2010, 8:57 PM

Post #21 of 36 (62188 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrb] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

MONDAY
no wind

WEDNESDAY
the sea was to lumpy for a boat designed for a non DOG compliant location, I say run the race and if Team Alinghi are to scared than they can forfeit the race.
they could have strengthened their boat and shortened it to make it DOG compliant but I suspect Arrogance got in the way.

WILL, I am starting to understand why grinders have being replaced by engines.


jrb
***

Feb 10, 2010, 10:13 PM

Post #22 of 36 (62181 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

See Cory Friedmanís latest article (Part 58).

He explains how the teams and race committee are reading in (making their own incorrect interpretations based upon current practice) far too much wrt the requirements/instructions contained in the Deed of Gift.

Wind & wave conditions should be virtually irrelevant.

The race committee is not obligated to look out for the safety of the boats or their crews in a DoG match. That is up to the respective crews. Building a sea worthy boat is the responsibility of the respective teams and their designers/builders.

If the teams donít want to race on an otherwise specified day, they can mutually consent to postpone, otherwise the race committee should start the race as scheduled.

The administration of this DoG match is being made unnecessarily complicated.





willbaillieu
****

Feb 10, 2010, 10:51 PM

Post #23 of 36 (62173 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrb] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

jrb,
I don't always agree with Cory Friedman, but in this case I concur fully. They are making it too complicated.
nobody wants to see anyone killed, but in the end it is up to the individual syndicates whether to race or not.
The RC has a responsibility to see that the race can be reasonably expected to start and finish within the 7 hour time limit. They also need to set a fair start line at 90 deg.
There have always been wind limits (both upper and lower) but wave limits is something new. Extreme wave conditions might be an acceptable reason for not starting, but we have not seen anything like that.
These boats are very fast but very fragile. You can't have it both ways. Entirely the responsibility of the respective design teams.
So let the races go on, as long as the wind is consistent in direction at the start.
I couldn't agree more about building seaworthy boats, capable of completing the course. It is obvious to all that these featherweight monsters are not seaworthy boats. If they make it around the track, good luck to them.


In Reply To
See Cory Friedmanís latest article (Part 58).

He explains how the teams and race committee are reading in (making their own incorrect interpretations based upon current practice) far too much wrt the requirements/instructions contained in the Deed of Gift.

Wind & wave conditions should be virtually irrelevant.

The race committee is not obligated to look out for the safety of the boats or their crews in a DoG match. That is up to the respective crews. Building a sea worthy boat is the responsibility of the respective teams and their designers/builders.

If the teams donít want to race on an otherwise specified day, they can mutually consent to postpone, otherwise the race committee should start the race as scheduled.

The administration of this DoG match is being made unnecessarily complicated.






willbaillieu
****

Feb 10, 2010, 11:03 PM

Post #24 of 36 (62171 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Mate, an engine is about the only thing that COULD replace a grinder. No pussy BMW either, it would need to be a Rolls Royce.
Don't worry, the big boys will be back.
You've got a good imagination so I look forward to your next work of fiction. You might be a bit slow but you'll figure it out.
In the mean time, next time you're hanging around Hooters, give Larry a kiss from me.


In Reply To
MONDAY
no wind

WEDNESDAY
the sea was to lumpy for a boat designed for a non DOG compliant location, I say run the race and if Team Alinghi are to scared than they can forfeit the race.
they could have strengthened their boat and shortened it to make it DOG compliant but I suspect Arrogance got in the way.

WILL, I am starting to understand why grinders have being replaced by engines.






waiknot
****

Feb 10, 2010, 11:27 PM

Post #25 of 36 (62164 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrb] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

There's no denying Cory Friedman is reporting matters with clarity in well worded posts.


jrb
***

Feb 11, 2010, 5:25 AM

Post #26 of 36 (62123 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

ďThe RC has a responsibility to see that the race can be reasonably expected to start and finish within the 7 hour time limit. They also need to set a fair start line at 90 deg.Ē

ďThere have always been wind limits (both upper and lower) but wave limits is something new. Extreme wave conditions might be an acceptable reason for not starting, but we have not seen anything like that.Ē

ďSo let the races go on, as long as the wind is consistent in direction at the start.Ē

Under the terms of the Deed, the RC does not need to worry about there being a reasonable expectation of a finish within the time limit. Thatís on the teams. Itís up to the RC to simply start the race. There is no requirement in the Deed that the start line be at 90 deg. The Deed requires the course to the first mark to be to windward. You are reading too much into it by imposing current practice on a DoG match. Itís not meant to be a hybrid.

Wind and wave limits are contrary to the terms of the DoG.

Again, there is no requirement for the wind to be consistent in direction at the start, only that the course start to windward.





The Publisher
*****


Feb 11, 2010, 11:39 AM

Post #27 of 36 (62084 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrb] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Having read almost everything there is to read regarding the America's Cup and having given talks to various yacht clubs in the San Francisco Bay Area about the AC competition during 2000 when I had been a volunteer with Dawn Riley's USA 51, my view is somewhat focused on competition and boat design. Most of us consider conditions ready for sailing on the Bay when the wind starts at 15 knots and UP. Lasers are sailed on San Francisco Bay during 25 to 30 knots to toughen the crew for around the world races on big boats.

I remember that the early competitions required the challenger to sail on her own bottom to the competition site--this required sea worthy designs and passage making capabilities to handle any condition encountered in the Atlantic. What is this business Alenghi cannot sail safely with any kind of swell...wonder how she would have done in Perth years ago...

Racing boats that cannot survive conditions that we experience in San Francisco Bay when we race...interesting. And this is supposed to be state of the art race boat design, hummm.

I noticed that the racing rules state that the winner of two races gets the "auld mug"..my suggestion to Oracle is to always be ready on a moment's notice or be ready to move out at all times...The defender might say they are not going out because of conditions...then when Oracle packs it in for the day, Alenghi races out to the start line and sails alone. I do not trust anything going on over there...my only hope is that if the defender goes out and cracks the hull and the boat goes down, the skipper will honor the tradition of the sea and go down with the ship...but this wouldn't happen because as I see it, there is little honor left.

Russ Saunders Martinez, California




The Publisher
*****


Feb 11, 2010, 11:46 AM

Post #28 of 36 (62082 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

* From Dick Enersen:
Notwithstanding my destroyed daily sleep regimen, I remained awake this afternoon long enough to digest Lawyer Friedmanís latest ('Butt 3207). As we have come to expect, heís spot on in his analysis of the situation. He is also appropriately tough on SNG and its RC.

I particularly appreciate his observation about the race course. Long story short, it is not a half-mile Laser sausage; itís a bloody ocean race. Shoot the wind, drop some marks, shoot some guns, start a watch and see who comes back first (under 7 hours elapsed time).

I donít claim to be a meteorologist or a great Med hand, but it seems that weather, good and bad, moves damn fast in the Valencian winter. Itís bad for the event, and what audience there is, not to able to take advantage of every opportunity to race. I read the articleís quote of PRO Bennett, about there being only 5 or 6 acceptable race days in the past 3 weeks, as a subtle shot at his SNG paymaster.

If weíre lucky, after there's no racing on the 14th, SNG will announce that they will try to race every day except after the completion of a race, as the Deed requires. If we're REALLY lucky, it will be over on Sunday, GGYC will collect the Cup, and we can get on with life and the next event.

I need a nap.






waiknot
****

Feb 11, 2010, 12:57 PM

Post #29 of 36 (62073 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

No I cant see the skipper going down with the boat either, when the Titanic went down I believe the ships owner was one of the first in the life boats.


The Publisher
*****


Feb 11, 2010, 1:01 PM

Post #30 of 36 (62073 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

* From Kris Anderson:
I think the selection of time and venue for this Cup was a call that borders on genius. We do not have to worry about the poor winter sailing conditions off the coast of Valencia as it will be summer before they finally find conditions that fit the extremely narrow parameters put forth by the defender. Besides, isn't the suspense part of the whole thing?


willbaillieu
****

Feb 11, 2010, 3:54 PM

Post #31 of 36 (62051 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrb] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

jrb,
Cory Friedman does a nice literal analysis of the DoG.
We all understand what he is saying, but I think any Race Committee also has a "duty of care" owed to the participants. This is expected in these times and may also carry a legal liability as well.
If I was running the Race Committee in these litigious times, I would certainly want to be careful about the impact of any of my decisions.
In practical terms, I would want no argument over what actually constituted "Windward".
In order to "cover my arse" I would ensure that the weather mark was set the required distance to Windward of the start line, and do my best to ensure a fair start line at 90 deg. As in any race, once the gun goes the wind can shift where it likes. I could do no more or less than that. Surely there could be no complaint there?
I agree about it being the responsibility of the competing teams to build a boat capable of completing open ocean races. If they don't, it is entirely their own problem.
I can only repeat what I have previously said that these craft are unsuitable; that are not capable of open ocean racing. They are also dangerous, and this is entirely the responsibility of the relevant Clubs.
In the end, the Race Committee makes the call, but something puzzles me about the rigid programme of scheduling races only every second day.
The Deed states that one day shall pass after the CONCLUSION of one race, before the start of the next. Seems to me that Race 1 at least could be started on any day, and that we have already missed four days when this was possible.
Race 1 should have started last Monday. Despite being light conditions it would most likely have been concluded within the 7 hours, thereby getting a result.
Race 2 should have started Wednesday, in stronger conditions meaning the time limit was not going to get in the way.
There was nothing to prevent either of these races starting, although they had difficulty on Day 1 in setting a weather mark because of 100 deg wind variations.
If we believe the hype about these two boats, Alinghi would have been happier with the weather on Monday, and BOR would have been happier with the weather on Wednesday.
I don't know what level of mutual consent there is in holding the boats at the dock so that course conditions can be examined. I suppose it is a practical consideration of the logistics involved, but I would prefer to see the boats out on the course.
Am I alone in hating these stupid featherweight multi hulls? If they are so "technologically advanced", why can't they race on the ocean in regular offshore conditions?
We'll soon see what happens to such technologically advanced sailing freaks when they hit solid ocean wind and waves at high speed. My bet is that they will break. I just hope no one is killed if they do.
I guess I suffer from a sense of fair play. My sensibilities have been thoroughly offended by what has occurred over the last 2 years or so of never ending Court action, that I fear for the future of this great event.
In the end, the Deed says they should race, but nobody wants to be responsible for causing death or injury. Common sense ought to prevail in the regatta organisation at least, even if it has been missing in the lead up.
There really ought to be a survey requirement of any boat that competes for America's Cup, at any time. The survey should specify the structural integrity of any boat within normal parameters of ocean racing conditions. There isn't, which is a failure of the Deed in this case. Therefore some common sense and patience is needed.
As always, after considering the race conditions it is always going to be up to the skipper to decide whether to continue or not.





rt_/)
***

Feb 11, 2010, 4:38 PM

Post #32 of 36 (62046 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Max] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

When we're talking about writing & publishing a Notice of Race, we should realize that the RRS give this privilege to the organizing authority (rule 89.2), as well as appointment of race officals. From a pure rules standpoint, it's not a violation for SNG to write a NOR favoring its boat.


jrb
***

Feb 11, 2010, 8:13 PM

Post #33 of 36 (62019 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

willbaillieu,
*Iím left wondering what is wrong with following a literal analysis of the DoG? I also wonder what is right with being creative in the interpretation of the DoG?
*The PRO and RC have a duty to follow the specifications contained within the DoG.
*ďIn these litigious timesĒ is a red herring. (Itís also more pussified than replacing a burly grinder with a BMW diesel) They are well insured. Regardless, there is not fault attached if the RC follows the specifications contained within the DoG. If they donít have the backbone, pass the job on to someone who does.
*You know what ďwindwardĒ is. (no Clinton games, questioning what the definition of ďisĒ, is) Windward is not necessarily dead upwind.
If you can set a start line square to a mark ~20 miles upwind, while miles out in the open ocean, then good on you. No need to duck for cover. If the wind shifts such that the first leg is no longer to windward, then itís bad luck and the course doesnít meet the DoG specification. Try again in two days.
*Agreed about the issue of fragile build. Send them out and let them work it out. If they donít want to go out, they can mutually consent to a delay, or one can forfeit if the other completes the course within the time limit. Every other day, itís time to man up.
*Your interpretation may be absolutely correct? Perhaps the teams are only due a lay day if they actually start a race? Interesting point.
*It would be productive if the teams would clearly announce any events in which they mutually consent. In the absence of clear communication, Iím left to assume there is no mutual consent. BMWO saying they were prepared to race, but agreed with the PRO not to race Wednesday could have been mutual consent or it could have been a gesture not to call out the PRO and piss him off?
*Iím indifferent to the issue of multi-hull or mono-hull. Iím not a big fan of slow lead guppies. Whatever type of boat is used, moving forward, I hope they are designed for/built for/raced in a wide variety of wind and wave conditions. Certainly they should be able to handle the sort of conditions a good Opti kid can handle.
*As for fair play, thatís life. Fair is for sale. Both sides have a lot of money. The AC might die? If it does, something will come along to replace it. Itís not exactly sacrosanct, but I can empathize with your attachment.
*The teams are not made up of children. They are all adults. They are capable of deciding if they should race, or not, on any given day.
*I donít think a survey is needed. If the owners/designers/skipper/crews know they will be obligated to race in a wide variety of wind and wave conditions and the nanny RC will not protect them from themselves, then they will eventually build and race seaworthy boats. Bring the expectations back to where they should have been all along. Put everyone on notice that RCís will consider postponing AC races when there are gale force winds on the course. Otherwise, be prepared for a start sequence. Darwin will prevail.





willbaillieu
****

Feb 11, 2010, 10:06 PM

Post #34 of 36 (61997 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrb] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Jrb,
Here we call them aortas. Aorta do this...aorta do that.
It might be a DoG match but letís not get too dogmatic about it. You know exactly what I mean about to Windward, in racing terms. Itís not that hard to set a fair start line, so why wouldnít you?
We have finally arrived here via a two year concrete mixer ride through the Courts. We now at least have the prospect of a match. We can pontificate all we want about what the Deed means and does not mean, but in the end it comes to nothing. Itís now a two-boat match by their own arrangement in a venue that is itself non compliant.
By litigious times I am not referring to anything other than the prospect of someone being killed during one of these races, and blame being levied. Nothing pussy about that; it is something that would haunt those involved forever. Letís hope it doesnít come to that.
As aortas, we can complain and whine and whinge as much as we like. The problem is that it is really a private contest between two boats and neither of the two syndicates is complaining. They both seem content to have a professional like Harold Bennett run the match his way. Harold obviously takes that to mean running the contest in fairness and safety.
James Spithill said he would have been prepared to race on Wednesday, but in the same breath he backed Haroldís judgement in cancelling the race. I suspect it was a bit of bravado.
My guess is that both syndicates are seriously shit scared of their boats breaking up.
Whether the catamaran is flimsier than the tri, who knows for sure?
It could be the other way round. I donít believe the tri can even lower its wing sail at sea. That has got to be unseaworthy.
Since itís just a two boat race, I guess itís up to them. The rest of us will just have to bite our tongues.
I am sticking by my view, by virtue of the Deed, that Race 1 could have been started on any one of the last 4 days, as the one day rest condition only applies after a race has been ďconcludedĒ, but as I already said, it seems to be up to the two syndicates now, and no one else.
We aortas have to cop it whichever way it goes.





Max
**

Feb 12, 2010, 3:18 AM

Post #35 of 36 (61975 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Again with due respect to Will, I don't see much basis for the continuing derision of BMWO/USA as a "featherweight"/"fragile"/"dangerous" boat.

A5 clearly is the first two, having been designed in accordance with EB's RAK plan, and might well be the third. As others suggest - and as all, including Bennett are clearly keen to avoid - we may well see A5 forfeit (or, rather, be told that they've forfeited and then force us to watch while EB sulks and raves and so on) as unable to finish. By contrast, USA was clearly designed for a much broader range of conditions - as is borne out by (i) GGYC's insistence on a DoG-compliant venue and time, notwithstanding likely conditions; (ii) Russell Coutts isn't stupid; (iii) nor is James Spithill; and (iv) unlike some owners, Ellison lets his good sailors do their thing. The wing sail is effectively featherable, incidentally, so no dice there either.

Further to (iv), by the way, I also can't see anything to Will's point about Ellison not helming and Bertarelli doing so, unless it's to emphasise still further that A5 is a vanity affair. I presume, for example, that John Bertrand wouldn't have taken kindly to big Alan (Bond) taking over the show, nor would Bond have been so arrogant. EB's "helming" will either - if he really does make any calls himself - show up just how different a spoiled rich boy is from a seriously gifted helmsman or - more likely - will involve holding the wheel while Butterworth and Peyron tell him, probably in quite small words, exactly what to do.


jrb
***

Feb 12, 2010, 9:44 AM

Post #36 of 36 (61932 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] Alinghi Notice of Race/ISAF Rules status [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

willbaillieu,

If itís not hard for this RC to set a ďfairĒ start line and they can accomplish that task without delaying a scheduled race to the point of calling it off for the day, then great, they should do it. There is no reason not to. However, if the result of striving to set a fair start line causes a long enough delay to void racing on that particular day, then they should just set a course that meets the DoGís requirement that the first leg be to windward. Todayís race showed itís not particularly tactical once the boats get away from the start line.

I do not wish to see anyone injured or killed either. That said, life is a contact sport and Iíd rather go out doing something I love rather than withering away. None of us are getting out of here alive anyway. Regardless, no one was coerced to race these boats and no one was coerced to be a part of the RC that goes to sea. They are all adults capable of making informed choices. None of them need a nanny. If Harold Bennett wants to be their nanny and the teams are happy with him being their nanny, then I find it odd and kind of sad.

I tend to agree with you that there should only be a lay day after an actual race has been started. Hats off to you for pointing that out.

To be clear, I agreed with you that these multi-hulls were designed/built for too narrow a band of conditions. Time might tell if USA or Alinghi 5 is the more fragile? That doesnít distinguish them much from recent iterations of AC mono-hulls, also designed/built too fragile to go out and race when the wind/waves pipe up. Require them to race in a blow and the boats will be designed/built differently. Send the nannies on holiday and weíll all be the better for it.

Edit: While I disagree with Harold Bennett running the RC under modern day criteria, rather than the requirements of the DoG, he is a PRO of integrity as evidenced Cory Friedmanís Scuttlebutt exclusive on the SNG supplied committee members staging a strike today, 2/14/10.





Viewing the Forums: No members and guests
 


Search for (options) Contact Forum Forum FAQS Markup Tags Forum Rules