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willbaillieu
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Dec 22, 2009, 11:08 PM

Post #1 of 41 (168356 views)
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Oh please, Larry, come on!
You have already initiated how many legal actions? 8? 10?
And you've won them all so far. Can't you just go and race now?
Right now you have demanded and won in Court, a competition in Valencia, some time in February (maybe), over something between 3 and 7 races (who knows?) in the loony multi hulls that you first insisted on.
Surely that is enough? But no, now you want to challenge Alinghi again, this time over the origin of their sails. At the same time you are claiming they have failed their fiduciary duty as Trustees of America's Cup, and might challenge an AC result if it doesn't go your way.
Just what is your problem Larry? You appear very much like someone who is afraid to go out and race on the racetrack. Admittedly your track record is pretty ordinary, but surely even you must be ready to compete by now?
We were on your side when you challenged the actions of Alinghi in appointing a paper Challenger of Record. You won that one, but you've lost the rest of us since with your seemingly ceaseless court actions.
For God's sake, give the lawyers long service leave and let's get on with it.
We're all sick of this courtroom AC challenge. if you're that good, go and race.
Will Baillieu
(non diesel variety) Grinder
KA6 1983


Clark Chapin
**

Dec 23, 2009, 7:39 AM

Post #2 of 41 (168345 views)
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As I understand it, if Alinghi doesn't respond positively, the next step is to take the issue to the five Judges, not to the courts.
My question for the Swiss is: "What part of 'country of origin' don't you understand?"


jrb
***

Dec 23, 2009, 7:26 PM

Post #3 of 41 (168323 views)
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willbaillieu; Letís try to get the facts right. 1) BMW/Oracle already has a legal motion underway claiming Alinghi have failed their fiduciary duty as Trustees of America's Cup. It is not an after the race happens kind of deal. 2) BMW/Oracle has every right to question whether or not the opposition is adhering to the rules regarding the nation of origin of the sails to be used. Clark Chapin has correctly pointed out that BMW/Oracle is not seeking clarification via the courts, but rather, via the race jury. Why the misinformation?


willbaillieu
****

Dec 23, 2009, 8:29 PM

Post #4 of 41 (168317 views)
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OK jrb, I am all for getting the facts right.
So please feel free to tell me where I misinformed?
First fact.
You confirm what I wrote, that BMW/Oracle has a current legal motion regarding Alinghi's fiduciary duty as Trustee of America's Cup.
As it is unlikely to be resolved before the DoG match is raced in February, it may well be "an after the race kind of deal".

Quoting from Stuart Alexander in the Independent 22.12.09 http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/sailing/bmw-oracle-questions-alinghis-validity-1848167.html:
"Alinghi also knows that a further, and potentially much more vicious, attack under a claim of a breach of fiduciary duty continues to bubble away behind the scenes. If Oracle loses the race series on the water, the pursuit of that claim could sink an event which was spawned in the UK in 1851 back into the legal mire for an untold timespan to come".

Second fact. You confirm what I wrote, that BMW/Oracle has given notice that they intend challenging the origin of Alinghi's sails. Isn't that what I wrote?

Third fact. Like a lot of America's Cup sailors around the world, I am heartily sick of all these off the water "challenges". We didn't exactly get a clean go at the Cup in my day either, but we backed ourselves against all the odds and won.
It's time Larry Ellison got out there and raced. He seems intent on eliminating Alinghi without a race being sailed. That would be the ultimate hollow victory, and an undeserved conclusion to an America's Cup contest.
Neither side in this farce will ever win a popularity contest. They are like two dogs in the manger, but only one is making challenges through the Courts. I think it is 10-0, Oracle at the last count.


jrb
***

Dec 24, 2009, 9:31 AM

Post #5 of 41 (168304 views)
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My previous post must not have conveyed the distinctions. My apologies. Iíll try to be clearer. 1st Fact: Your initial post on 12/22 indicated BMW/Oracle might challenge the upcoming race result wrt the issue of fiduciary duty, ďif it doesnít go your wayĒ. That is misleading. The pending legal motion is not dependent upon the result on the race course. It may be decided before of after the February 2010 races, but the timing will be largely up to the court. Your statement leads the reader to assume BMW/Oracle might file a legal motion related to fiduciary duty if they lose. Thatís incorrect. Itís already filed, win or lose. Quote from your 12/22 post: ďWe were on your side when you challenged the actions of Alinghi in appointing a paper Challenger of Record. You won that one, but you've lost the rest of us since with your seemingly ceaseless court actions.Ē Some were on his side and some were not, both then and today. The timespan and number of court actions is a matter of perception. For those with patience, it has been a relative blink of an eye and a few court actions. For those with less patience, it has been forever with far too many court actions. I disagree with Stuart Alexander and point out ďa further, and potentially much more vicious, attackĒ gratuitously inflammatory language. Itís just court after all, with suits and words, but few fists. Iíd also kind of like to see the fiduciary duty issue play out in court. It might provide important guidance for future defenders, whoever they might be? YMMV. 2nd Fact: Again, your 12/22 post indicated more than you are writing in your 12/23 response. We agree that BMW/Oracle has given notice that they intend challenging the origin of Alinghi's sails. Your 12/22 post indicates they intend to challenge the origin of the sails in court. They do not. They intend to challenge the origin of the sails via the race jury. Thatís sounds like fairly proper sailing practice. YMMV. 3rd Fact: Iím not going to dispute how you feel about the Americaís Cup in general or the state it currently finds itself. Also, congrats on winning your cup challenge. However, there are plenty of sailors on each side, cup or otherwise. Iíd estimate the court record against Alinghi is quite damning regarding their conduct. Iím fairly sure their interpretations about the composition of the race jury and items such as measurement related to water ballast and rudders, which was rejected by the panel of experts, were essentially meant to predetermine the outcome of the match, on or off the water. Hypothetically, had Alinghi won the match without the court challenges being considered, especially as they lost each court challenge, thenÖ.Ē That would be the ultimate hollow victory, and an undeserved conclusion to an America's Cup contest.Ē Your words. ďNeither side in this farce will ever win a popularity contest. They are like two dogs in the manger, but only one is making challenges through the Courts. I think it is 10-0, Oracle at the last count.Ē If popularity won an AC match, then the history of winners would be much different. I donít think either side gives a ratís backside about popularity, and thatís never been what the AC is about. I was going to agree you are right with regard to only one side making challenges through the courts, but itís just not true. Alinghi has lawyered up plenty and have initiated plenty of their own motions on appeal and otherwise. As an aside, your 12/22 post you wrote: ďRight now you have demanded and won in Court, a competition in Valencia, some time in February (maybe), over something between 3 and 7 races (who knows?) in the loony multi hulls that you first insisted on.Ē (the ďyouĒ being BMW/Oracle) Valencia was mutually agreed at a point in time in the process that provided appropriate notice to the challenger. RAK was never deed compliant. For RAK to be the match site, BMW/Oracle would need to consent. They did not, which is their right. (thatís pretty clear cut, sort of like port/starboard) Without time available to provide notice to the challenger, the court ordered Valencia. The issue of the number of races (and a delayed start date of for the match of ~4 days) was brought up by government officials in Valencia. The subject was not broached by BMW/Oracle and they are prepared to race the DoG match beginning on the court specified date.
I enjoyed reading your posts, which included a certain amout of poetic license. My above comments explain how I think they represent a certain amout of misrepresentation.


brown_rb
**

Jan 2, 2010, 6:58 PM

Post #6 of 41 (168219 views)
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Oracle has made a major mistake - they should have taken the CIC sail issue direct to the courts. Alinghi will try to drag this out as long as possible and delay the jury as long as it can, till the last possible minute, then appeal saying it cant race cause it needs more time etc, possibly appeal to the courts, and then probably be granted an extension, Oracle should not be playing nice on this issue, they advised Alinghi a long time ago, this is a major mistake on their part for waiting till now and trying to pressure Alinghi into forming the jury, past experience has proven that pressure or asking Alinghi doesnt work.


waiknot
****

Jan 4, 2010, 8:50 PM

Post #7 of 41 (168178 views)
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willbaillieu,

I strugle with your logic in condeming BOR for their legal challanges.

The sucess BOR have been having in court highlights how just their concerns were and how little regard Alinghi has for the Deed of Gift and the history of the America's Cup. BOR gave Alinghi ample opportunity to return to the format of the 32nd AC and then with the Deed of Gift challange, has had to remind Alinghi of the rules every step of the way and then resort to the courts to enforce the rules.

Quite simply I still believe Alinghi should be stripped of the cup, and Ernesto asked to go play elsewhere.






willbaillieu
****

Jan 5, 2010, 1:36 PM

Post #8 of 41 (168146 views)
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I'm with Craig Leweck (SB 2999). Most people see BMW/Oracle as the one boat in the fleet that always has its protest flag up. They might be right but at some stage they just need to get on with it and race, and stop nit picking on every point.
Sails have long been excluded from the country of origin rule in normal AC competition. In this DoG match, no Swiss sails have yet been submitted for measuring, so there is no suggestion anyone has done anything wrong. Indeed it is not even clear if sails have to be made in the country of origin for a DoG match. Why should it be different to an AC match?
So what's the point of BMW/Oracle's signaled intent? And in the end, what does it matter? One boat has sails, one has a wing. One is a Tri one is a Cat. They are completely different boats. There is no way these boats will be evenly matched. One will win 2-0. Which one?
In the freak match that Larry demanded and got, let's just get on with it and find out. Enough protests.
The NYYC twisted and bent the rules for a century to suit itself and hold on to the Cup. Eventually the best way to stop that was to go out and beat them, on the track.
Personally I don't care who wins, but I am sick of Larry's bleating about everything and anything. Apparently I am not alone.





peterbrown77
***


Jan 5, 2010, 2:58 PM

Post #9 of 41 (168139 views)
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Sorry, Will, but Ernesto Bertarelli is really the most despicable person to have won or hold the America's Cup. What's this load of horse shit about mooring USA in the harbor where it will not fit or be disqualified? I bet they think they're very clever, but it will bite them in the ass (again).

The fact of the matter is that the Deed calls for "friendly competition among nations" and that is SNG's duty - their fudiciary duty - to uphold, and for the past two and a half years they have done nothing of the sort. Remember, even though this is a DoG match, it is the first match in history to have ABSOLUTELY NO mutual consent. Even in 1988, Mercury Bay and SDYC were able to sit down and agree on dates, format, jury, etc. This is SNG/Alinghi/Bertarelli's charge as trustees of the Cup and they have failed miserably. They do not deserve to be trustee of the Cup, and God help it if they win it again.





The Publisher
*****


Jan 5, 2010, 6:03 PM

Post #10 of 41 (168132 views)
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In Reply To
Oracle has made a major mistake - they should have taken the CIC sail issue direct to the courts. Alinghi will try to drag this out as long as possible and delay the jury as long as it can, till the last possible minute, then appeal saying it cant race cause it needs more time etc, possibly appeal to the courts, and then probably be granted an extension, Oracle should not be playing nice on this issue, they advised Alinghi a long time ago, this is a major mistake on their part for waiting till now and trying to pressure Alinghi into forming the jury, past experience has proven that pressure or asking Alinghi doesnt work.



Oracle could not have taken it to the courts, as the courts can not rule on something that has not happened yet. Alinghi does not need to disclose their equipment until the start of the first race. What is unclear at this point is whether sails are included in the CIC requirement, though it appears a precedent exists that they do. Hopefully the International Jury will be sufficiently empowered to handle this protest if it is warranted and occurs.

- Craig Leweck, Scuttlebutt


jrb
***

Jan 5, 2010, 7:01 PM

Post #11 of 41 (168127 views)
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willbaillieu: With such close ties to the AC, of course you are aware that the race which provided the cup itself, to be know forward as the Americaís Cup, was not a particularly friendly match and gave numerous advantages to the defending country, England. Iím perfectly willing to stipulate the NYYC continued the tradition of legislating a home field advantage through many defenses. Perhaps in the interest of a better show and closer competition, the NYYC eventually gave up the advantage of the requirement for challengers to race with sails constructed in their own country. (When the USA was rich in sailmaking resources compared to most other countries) That was a fairly substantial concession by the NYYC and went some way toward leveling the playing field. By and large, the challengers, from that date forward, took advantage of NYYCís largess. Hence, mutual consent. The analogy here would be the defender (Alinghi) allowing the challenger (BOR) to use sails constructed in Switzerland, not vise versa. Iíll stipulate there has been dirty pool on both sides, but the record indicates the overwhelming majority of improper acts have been attributed to Alinghi. (Latest dirty trick related to the NOR and mooring/base for BOR that is too small) They (Alinghi) donít seem to know how to organize an inclusive (to include all the mono-hull teams) regatta, and are also failing at organizing a DoG match. Are you related to (or having relations with) someone on the Alinghi Team or has someone from BOR done your sister wrong? Itís otherwise difficult to attribute the source of your apparent hatred of BOR. The causation of most of the bile you attribute to BOR is, in actuality, the responsibility of Alinghi.


waiknot
****

Jan 5, 2010, 7:38 PM

Post #12 of 41 (168121 views)
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Sorry Wilbaillieu,

your coments that "I am sick of Larry's bleating about everything and anything. Apparently I am not alone." dont appear to stack up either going by the amount of comment attributing this whole issue to Alinghi.

However we are all in agreement that the old fashined way of having a duel at sunset (in this case best of 3 races at Valencia) would be a dam site better.

And sorry one more thing to quote you "In the freak match that Larry demanded and got" Larry did not demand this DOG match he did however say or words to this effect, Ernesto play by the rules and run the 33rd Regata as required or I will take this to the courts and take it to you. 10 nil to BOR in the courts (or there about) it would be fair to say the courts dont think much of the way Ernesto plays. and why after all the legal crap Ernesto has forced and still attempting to force Larry to go through would you expect Larry to play freindly over other issues such as legallity of the sails. Actually warning Ernesto in advance he could have a problem is kind of friendly.

Also yes the Ameria's Cup rules have always favoured the defender, however this advantage would not appear to be big enough for Ernesto.

As asked before
"Can someone please tell me what Ernesto Bertarelli and Alinghi have actually contributed to the Americas Cup.
As far as I can tell, He bought his way in by gutting Team N Z of its key staff with his oversized cheque book rather than form his own team from scratch, and in the process scuttled the opposition before they even got on the water. Once he won the cup he tried to rig the next regatta by forming a Patsy Yacht Club as Challenger of Record to give himself total control."



willbaillieu
****

Jan 5, 2010, 10:43 PM

Post #13 of 41 (168113 views)
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Hey don't try to paint me as a fan of either side in this. I have friends on both sides, but as I've said before, neither side here has won any fans. Like many others I am over the whole thing. The continual stream of legal challenges and threats has left me cold. There is no goodwill at all, so why are you all surprised by Alinghi's hostile action over the AC base in Valencia? It is just another example of aggression leading to more aggression.
This DoG match was at Larry Ellison's insistence. It was not wanted by Alinghi at all. Ten times he has dragged this through the Courts.
As for Ernesto Bertarelli's contribution to America's Cup, he is already a two time AC Cup winner. The last AC is considered to be probably the greatest ever held. At least he has some credibility.
And yes,he has a big cheque book and lots of Kiwis in his team, but Larry has even more Kiwis and an even bigger cheque book.
Maybe the Kiwis are the only ones here with any real credibility, but they are on all sides. There are Kiwis in every AC team.
Even more of a pity they cannot take part in this AC as a team.
I say get rid of the lawyers and get on with the match, if that is what this can ever be called.
Both Alinghi and BMW/Oracle have made a hash of the whole thing.
What is going to happen after this joke match is over? Will they all shake hands and congratulate the winning team? Pigs will fly first.
It really is shaping up to be the most ill conceived and nasty event ever held, a blight on the Cup itself.
History will show that Larry would have been much better served just to shut up and go out and win on the water.


waiknot
****

Jan 6, 2010, 12:35 AM

Post #14 of 41 (168111 views)
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Your missing the point,

you say Larry should have shut up and go win on the water, thats the whole point with Ernesto's rules only Ernesto was going to win on the water, but if you would happly go sale with baring a miracle garranted to lose. Im stunned.

you say dont paint you as a fan of either side, your constant attacks on Larry has done this already for you. Before you say i am biased, I will readly agree that Ernesto's antics have firmly thrown me in the Larry camp.

yes i will agree the 32nd cup was a sucess and Alinghi won. As for Ernesto's first victory, he bought it in an underhand maner. they say he is the first to win the cup on the first attempt. well he scuttled the opposition on DRY LAND first by buying out their key members before the first race was sailed. so much for winning on the water.

Oh and claiming that Larry insisted on the DOG match, really is not on, Ernesto was given the opportunity to run a legitimate regata and chose not to hence the long time in court. and the DOG match. I guess thats what happens when the Defender falls short in meeting his legal and moral obligations





jrb
***

Jan 6, 2010, 10:59 AM

Post #15 of 41 (168071 views)
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Characterizing the DoG match as being the product of BOR ignores most everything that has actually happened and BORís overtures toward making a multi challenge mono-hull AC a reality. EB could have easily made that a reality, but declined to do so.

The last several ACís have been a near complete bore. When the slow lead guppies have to stay in port when the wind just starts to blow, then something is wrong. ďOh well, the AC match for today has been postponed. I think Iíll take a sail in my Laser Ė in more wind than the AC boats could handle.Ē Sound familiar? No, the last several, and many of the Newport ACís were boring to watch, but Fremantle was fun. They sailed when the wind blew in that AC!





peterbrown77
***


Jan 6, 2010, 5:17 PM

Post #16 of 41 (168042 views)
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Will - you are so off base. GGYC/Ellison has offered SNG/Alinghi a return to the rules of AC32 with GGYC as Challenger of Record many times, and have a multi-regatta and Bertarelli has rejected it every damned time. In Butterworth's words (the second most despicable character in sailing today), "we built them, we might as well use them". To say that GGYC is getting the race they asked for is outright fabrication and denial of the obvious facts.


ozziesailor
*

Jan 7, 2010, 9:13 PM

Post #17 of 41 (167989 views)
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will
in many of your posts you go on about facts.
yet so many of your facts are absolute rubbish.
ggyc offered on several occasions for a mutli challanger event
with either a modified protocol that cnev had signed
or with a similar protocol from the previous event
sng were the ones who declined and demanded a dog match.
all the corrospondents was made public.

sng ahve behaved like spoilt children who cant have their own way ever since
they have tried to dsq ggyc on several occasion using made up rules
like measurement issues
and are still trying to do so by telling ggyc where they have to park their boat.
get your facts straight.
ggyc have been forced to go to court just to stay in the event and to stop sng's
flagrent cheating and bad sportsmanship.

given your claimed history in the sport you should remeber that gretel wast allowed to use the hood dacron sails
because the dacron wasnt made in the country of orign

rules are rules and you have to play by them. and if the only way to do that is to
take sng to court. then go right ahead i say.

are you saying that it is alright for sng to not play by the rules?

the sooner sng are thrown out of the ac arena the better
the we can go back to the type of multi challenger event you seem to like so much

oz


jrb
***

Jan 11, 2010, 3:32 PM

Post #18 of 41 (167928 views)
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Alinghi is proposing a max wind limit of 15 knots (measured well aloft) and max wave height of 1 meter for the match?????

That's enough to make an Optimist Green Fleet sailor roll on the floor and laugh out loud.


waiknot
****

Jan 11, 2010, 8:06 PM

Post #19 of 41 (167907 views)
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If you had designed a boat specificlly for the light winds of a noncompliant RAC with the specific intention to disadvantage BOR, and now had to race in a DOG compliant Valencia. You might need to push for a very low maximum sea chop and wind speed.
Then again Alinghi could be doing this for the greater good, whatever Alinghi's vision of that maybe.


brown_rb
**

Jan 12, 2010, 9:27 PM

Post #20 of 41 (167852 views)
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i stated a few days ago that I thought Oracle was making a mistake in not raising the CIC to the courts... now it turns out they have. After weeks of stuffing around with letters and meeting in Singapore, what was obvious became more so apparent - Alinghi wont change its stance and its just another delay tactic - maybe we will, maybe we wont, maybe we will use another boat, maybe we wont, I support Oracle in getting the courts to address this and all the previous issues, As a new zealander I was proud of Coutts and Butterworth when they won and defended the cup for NZ, disappointed when they went to alinghi. I hope Coutts can kick Butterworths butt, I heard many statements on TV by Butterworth and frankly I think his attitude and behaviour is unbecoming of any New Zealander. How much he has changed since winning that cup for the first time, now its seems like he will stoop at nothing to keep it. New Zealanders used to be above all this BS...


jrb
***

Jan 13, 2010, 7:44 AM

Post #21 of 41 (167819 views)
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I understand why Alinghi wants a light wind/low wave cap, and they should be ridiculed for it, early and often.

The Perth/Fremantle AC was one of the most exciting, due in large part to the boats/crews being required to race in a wide variety of conditions. Big waves and strong wind made for great television.

Since then, designers have been maximizing boats to sail in comparatively lighter wind conditions, on average. On the odd occasion when the wind blew and the boats went out, some sustained damage and at least one sank, nearly taking its crew with it. Instead of requiring the boats to be designed to be able to sail in up to 30-35 knots of wind (or more), the stakeholders instituted parameters where the AC boats might not leave port if the wind predictions approached a fresh breeze.

I view that as a dumbiing down of AC competition. Worldwide audiences seem to agree?

Now Bertarelli and company draft a NOR and sailing instructions that indicate there will be no racing when winds exceed 15 knots (measured well aloft) or waves higher than 1 meter. (Good luck organizing televised/online coverage. There is likely to be plenty of waiting and waiting and waiting some more for the boats to actually go out and race) I realize heís protecting his backside and his designed for the light air and flat water deed non-compliant RAK, but his wind/wave limitations represent an order of magnitude in dumbing down the AC.





waiknot
****

Jan 13, 2010, 9:02 PM

Post #22 of 41 (167758 views)
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Sorry jrb, I was sure you were aware of Alinghi's need for light air, I was just putting it into words to as you so nicely put it ridicule Alinghi.


waiknot
****

Jan 13, 2010, 9:33 PM

Post #23 of 41 (167756 views)
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I'm with you brown_rb,

Coutts and Butterworth's defection to Alinghi left a very bad taste. I do not blame them for going, for that amount of money it would be a brave man who said they wouldn't have gone.

But there was something wrong about how they went masquerading as leaders of Team NZ while quietly recruiting the rest of the team to leave with them. Nothing to be proud of there.

However you cant punish forever and Coutts appears to have moved on but as for Butterworth!!!!


peterbrown77
***


Jan 15, 2010, 3:25 AM

Post #24 of 41 (167702 views)
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Does anyone at all believe Butterworth's chronology of events regarding Alinghi's meeting with BOR in Singapore?


genaker
**

Jan 15, 2010, 1:30 PM

Post #25 of 41 (167661 views)
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genaker
**

Jan 15, 2010, 1:41 PM

Post #26 of 41 (167615 views)
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I think this is a rather silly issue to raise this late in the game, because the AC is really no longer a competition between countries. Look at Alinghy's sailors, design team, and weather team: how many of them are Swiss? The same can be said of BMW/Oracle, most notably the BMW part of the name. Additionally, a sail constructed in the US instead of Switzerland would unlikely give Alinghy a clear advantage in the race. I suspect that BMW raised this issue now because it need more time to prepare. This is obvious considering BMW's stated position that it would give Alinghy additional time to build new sails.

That said, however, it appears that Alinghy's position has been very unreasonable throughout the conflict. That is clear considering the fact that it lost almost every issue raised in court. I'm not sure if Alinghy has any credibility left to win on the CIC issue.


waiknot
****

Jan 15, 2010, 1:52 PM

Post #27 of 41 (167614 views)
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One look at the permant smirk on his face and you wouldn't believe very much.


genaker
**

Jan 15, 2010, 1:52 PM

Post #28 of 41 (167614 views)
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Re: [brown_rb] Latest BMW/Oracle legal action [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

   
I'm not sure about this. This may be the strategy that Oracle has in mind. It may need time to prepare for the race.


In Reply To
Oracle has made a major mistake - they should have taken the CIC sail issue direct to the courts. Alinghi will try to drag this out as long as possible and delay the jury as long as it can, till the last possible minute, then appeal saying it cant race cause it needs more time etc, possibly appeal to the courts, and then probably be granted an extension, Oracle should not be playing nice on this issue, they advised Alinghi a long time ago, this is a major mistake on their part for waiting till now and trying to pressure Alinghi into forming the jury, past experience has proven that pressure or asking Alinghi doesnt work.



The Publisher
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Jan 15, 2010, 2:47 PM

Post #29 of 41 (167607 views)
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Does anyone at all believe Butterworth's chronology of events regarding Alinghi's meeting with BOR in Singapore?



Tom Ehman's gave me this report today:

Tom Ehman: we had an agreement on Tue which Ernesto welched on. i told them Tue night that if we didn't have an agreement by 1000 on Wed substantially the same as we had on Tue before EB reneged, that we were going to file on Wed at 1000. Wed morn it was more the same.We filed. Then Alinghi got serious, and we re-negotiated and had another deal Wed evening. We signed, EB then refused to sign that agreement, cutting the legs out from underneath his own team (that had indeed drafted the agreement). Just ask the ISAF guys. Then Alinghi issued that "for the record" media website post yesterday that is a flat out lie. GGYC is sending a letter to SNG in a few minutes that SNG/Alinghi/Brad are not going to enjoy.
Craig Leweck: Thx. Curious what you would want to exchange for overlooking the CiC in re to the sails.
Tom Ehman: not much!
Tom Ehman: we are just trying to get a match on the water that is final
Tom Ehman: and for the city to have time to host it properly
Tom Ehman: and for there to be a TV show
Tom Ehman: and not conflict with the Olympics
Craig Leweck: So you were pushing for a later start date?
Tom Ehman: 8 Mar




waiknot
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Jan 15, 2010, 3:20 PM

Post #30 of 41 (167603 views)
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RE: the issue of the sails CiC no offence has been committed until they have being used in an actual America's Cup race. let them hang themselves.

Or more to the point:

Does Alinghi deserve the right to defend the America's Cup or should it suffer the ignominy of being the first to be striped of it.





peterbrown77
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Jan 15, 2010, 3:59 PM

Post #31 of 41 (167596 views)
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I looked on GGYC's website (ggyc.org) and there is a letter to SNG demanding an immediate and unreserved apology regarding statements made by Brad Butterworth concerning the sequence of events in Singapore.

Butterworth lied -again. I'm shocked, I tell you - shocked.


waiknot
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Jan 15, 2010, 8:23 PM

Post #32 of 41 (167584 views)
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shocked but not surprised


peterbrown77
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Jan 16, 2010, 5:37 AM

Post #33 of 41 (167572 views)
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Yes, Alinghi do have a penchant for being creative with the truth.


waiknot
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Jan 19, 2010, 12:14 AM

Post #34 of 41 (167372 views)
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Have a read of Alinghi's response to Oracle's demand for an apology about the Singapore talks,

http://multimedia.alinghi.com/multimedia/docs/2010/01/100117_SNG_letter_to_GGYC_Singapore.pdf

To quote the first sentence from Fred Meyer and Alec Tournier:

"This responds to your letter dated January 15, 2009. None of us were in Singapore
and we both have to rely on the reports we received from our teams. Your accusation
against a highly respected sailor is without grounds and very unfair."

On the one hand they say we were not there so don't really know (a nice little out clause), but your accusation is with out grounds??? They know this despite as they say not being there.

As far as Brad Butterworth being a highly respected sailor, well I'll concede he is a good sailor ......





willbaillieu
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Jan 19, 2010, 2:02 PM

Post #35 of 41 (167335 views)
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I am reluctant to contribute further to this debate as I only get (incorrectly) painted as supporting one side or the other.
What I do see, is a lack of good will on both sides. Both sides feel they have been wronged. Both sides feel their version is the correct version. Both sides feel their plan for America's Cup is the only correct plan.
They don't like each other. They are incapable of backing down. They are incapable of negotiating. They have irreparably damaged this pinnacle event, sport's oldest trophy.
With this as a background, the whole thing is going nowhere. Sorry to have to tell you, there is not going to be a winner.
As I have previously asked, if and when this farcical Challenge is concluded, does anyone think that the losing team will congratulate the winning team? Will we see handshakes and speeches acknowledging the worthy victors?
I once dreamed of winning America's Cup. It's nice to dream; sometimes dreams come true.
An amicable outcome to this disgraceful dispute is one dream that will not come true. It is a nightmare that isn't going away, even after the racing is concluded. Of course there may not even be a sailing event. It may yet be decided in court.
A pox on all who are involved in the dispute and in particular those who have used the courts to try to capture the Cup.


waiknot
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Jan 19, 2010, 2:41 PM

Post #36 of 41 (167333 views)
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Will,
read your posts and it is obvious you support one side. And that is fine you are entitled to have your view. So why not admit it?

Lets be honest it would be boring if we all had the exact same opinion.

You blame those who have gone to court, but not the side that has forced them to go to court?


peterbrown77
***


Jan 19, 2010, 3:23 PM

Post #37 of 41 (167329 views)
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Yeah, Will - right. You are "reluctant to contribute further" because you get "incorrectly painted as supporting one side over the other". You then do proceed to contribute, and leave a parting shot against BOR by casting a pox on all but "in particular those who have used the courts to try to capture the Cup".

No bias there.

Oh, and did you see the NEW Notice of Race? Let's review your hero Bertarelli's latest contributions to fostering "friendly competition among nations":

1) Re-added "skin friction" after suing in court to remove it. So will A5 be ejecting a polymer?

2) Set the max windspeed and wave height to mill-pond levels to bias the weather conditions toward their cockleshell, Persian Gulf-designed boat.

3) Set their Notice of Race as having precedence over the racing rules - when has that ever been done in any race?

4) Banned BOR's wind detection equipment while they will be flying their ultra-lights up the course looking for wind. Don't think for a heartbeat that the liar Butterworth won't be receiving SMS messages all during the race.

A pox on both their houses indeed. You need to be a little more objective.





waiknot
****

Jan 19, 2010, 10:46 PM

Post #38 of 41 (167313 views)
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Got to agree, I can't work out why Will doesn't have the balls to come out of the closet so to speak and admit he is an Alinghi supporter? Monitor Butterworth and Wills language they even speak the same contradictory rubbish.

I NOW PROPOSE A NEW AMERICA'S CUP RULE TO OVERRULE ALL OTHER RULES AND STOP THE LEGAL ACTION. In the process I believe I also clarify Alinghi's position:

Regardless of the outcome of any legal or on the water action Alinghi will immediate without the possibility of protest be declared the winner.
If the challenger happens to be leading approaching the finish line, they must immediately hove to until Alinghi has assumed their rightful place in front as they cross the line


willbaillieu
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Jan 20, 2010, 11:58 AM

Post #39 of 41 (167182 views)
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OK Peterbrown, you have at least acknowledged that BOR has used the Courts to try to capture the Cup. I didn't single them out. According to the Publisher you are far from alone in this view.
As for me coming out of the closet waiknot, happy to do that, for what its worth.
Hardly news that I have always considered Team New Zealand the one I most admire in AC competition. I have stated this previously.
New Zealanders are the truly great competitors. They have earned the respect of everyone in world sport. It is a travesty that they have been excluded from the 33rd America's Cup, particularly after their powerful performance as Challenger in 2007. Both Defender and Challenger teams are structured around the skill of New Zealanders.
It irks me to see how badly BOR has handled it's position as Challenger of Record. I know how the New Zealanders would have done it.
I hold the two warring parties in this current farce in equal contempt, for the damage they have done to America's Cup. Their own self interest has been placed above that of this great event.
Alinghi displayed poor judgement and a degree of arrogance in trying to take control of the Challenger series, while BOR has been fanatical in it's efforts to win off the water rather than on it.

Neither team has my support while they persist in this sort of behaviour. I am interested only in performance on the race track.
I have been consistent in my criticism of anyone who uses the Courts rather than competition to win America's Cup. I see no reason to change my view. It takes courage to take on an entrenched Defender, and win on the water, against the odds. It can be done and it has been done.

As I have previously said, I have friends on both sides. I have heard both views. In my view neither is right in this. They hold blinkered views of the dispute.

I understand that there are one eyed supporters of BOR here, who hate Alinghi. That is their right, if they so choose. It's not my position. I do not support the actions of either team in this. This farce could have been avoided if either side had displayed an ounce of good will instead of arrogance and belligerence. Both teams passed up that opportunity.
Now there is no reason to expect anything but a continuation of the legal action we have seen for the last 3 years, such is the degree of ill feeling. There is no good will at all. We will see a continuation of the petty arguments already aired.
I doubt we will even see a sailing competition this time around. The "boats" are stupid unevenly matched freaks, incapable of being sailed by human power, and technically unsuited to match racing.
Now if anyone wants to twist that around to suit their own bias, please go right ahead. I can make my views no clearer than I already have.





waiknot
****

Jan 20, 2010, 1:10 PM

Post #40 of 41 (167165 views)
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It would be interesting if it were possible to have a poll to see who the global sailing community holds responsible for the current state of the America's Cup.


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