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Forum Index: .: Dock Talk:
Which boat is faster?
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Lesbian Robot
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Nov 1, 2005, 11:58 AM

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On a 2.5 mi leg WLWL course, which boat would be faster, J105, J109 or Beneteau 36.7?




mighetto
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Nov 1, 2005, 1:01 PM

Post #2 of 63 (205180 views)
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Macgregor 26x, faster than all of them combined


KingSpoke
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Nov 1, 2005, 1:05 PM

Post #3 of 63 (205175 views)
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lame! J105


Curmudgeon
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Nov 1, 2005, 4:50 PM

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In Reply To
Macgregor 26x, faster than all of them combined


Heh Mighetto...please stay on topic.

The Curmudgeon





Snaggletooth
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Nov 1, 2005, 4:58 PM

Post #5 of 63 (205071 views)
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Is this trik question? It would have to be the race committe boat.


Lesbian Robot
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Nov 1, 2005, 5:26 PM

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I donno, KS, I race on a 36.7 and we usually ketch up with 109s on shorter WL courses. There is a 105 that mixes it up but beyond that...I donno, what do you think makes the difference? Can't be just the crew work, can it?


Bird Man
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Nov 1, 2005, 6:45 PM

Post #7 of 63 (205035 views)
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The 109 should be fastest arround the course unless its horribly sailed.


lat21
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Nov 1, 2005, 6:57 PM

Post #8 of 63 (205027 views)
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What Bird Man Said...

According to PHRF and IRC ratings the J109 is faster.


Lesbian Robot
***

Nov 1, 2005, 7:22 PM

Post #9 of 63 (205017 views)
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What's it rate? I personally sailed higher and faster than 109 on 36.7 - how come?


lat21
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Nov 1, 2005, 8:05 PM

Post #10 of 63 (205004 views)
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Because you had a better driver or better sails or better prepped bottom/keel or heavier hiking crew or ??? The ratings are pretty close. Or maybe one boat does better than the other in the conditions you were in. That will always be the problem with a single number like PHRF or IRC. A light air boat beats its rating in light air but gets hammered in heavier air and vice versa. IMS tried to fix that with a rating that varied based on wind speed but werte much more complex. Still the boats are close enough that the well prepped boat with the better crew will usually win boat for boat.

PHRF ratings are all over the map depending on where you sail. In the NW J109s rate 72, Bene36.7 rate 81-87. Oddly in the IRC scratch sheet, the J109s are rated all over the map. Must be different headsails, spinnakers, or weight configurations or early IRC anomalies??? IRC sample ratings for a J109 are 1.022 (slow) to 1.050 (faster). Bene36.7s are 1.027 to 1.036. IRC seems to be kinder to the J109 (rating it slower in many configurations). Still the faster J109s rate slightly faster than the faster B36.7s. Check out: http://www.ussailing.org/...ore/irc/IRC_TCCs.ASP for a list of IRC ratings or http://www.phrf-nw.org/...o%20ASCII%20File.xls for northwest PHRF ratings.


Lesbian Robot
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Nov 2, 2005, 5:43 AM

Post #11 of 63 (204958 views)
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here we go again, I am asking which boat is faster around the course and you're telling me about the ratings. have you sailed on these boats? as to my incident passing a 109, I donno, we had a crew of hacks in 36.7 who tried really hard to do well, they had a crew of hacks in 109 who tried really hard to do well, they are a new boat, we are a new boat, it's not like I compare with Pearson 30 or something like that.

ANYONE WITH A CLUE OUT THERE, Ladies and Gentlemen?





lat21
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Nov 2, 2005, 7:53 AM

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In Reply To
here we go again, I am asking which boat is faster around the course and you're telling me about the ratings. have you sailed on these boats?
ANYONE WITH A CLUE OUT THERE, Ladies and Gentlemen?



Nope never sailed either. I sailed a J35 for years and on a J105 and J120. If you think some random anonymous person is going to give you more accurate speed input than the PHRF ratings -- based on years of actual performance on multiple boats with varying skill levels, then yes, you clearly do need to find someone with a clue to help you out.

Personally, I like Jboats, but anyone paying $200K for a J109 is seeing something I don't. There are lots of faster, bigger/more comfortable, sportier, sexier, [pick your adjective] boats out there for significantly less money.


Lesbian Robot
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Nov 2, 2005, 9:22 AM

Post #13 of 63 (204900 views)
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>> If you think some random anonymous person is going to give you more accurate speed input than the PHRF ratings -- based on years of actual performance on multiple boats with varying skill levels,

I don't care if the person is anonimous or not, I know I am not, if you wish to come out from behind your curtain - feel free to do so. As to years of actual performance for PHRF ratings - I believe that 109 and 36.7 have only been racing for 2 years max, and most of it in Europe where there is no PHRF.

But again, I am trying to stay with Mr. Leweck's mandate and keep this thread about sailing, not some abstract computer guesstimations by PHRF board hacks.

I appreciate your honesty in admitting that you have not sailed on or against 109 or 36.7. I will value your anonimous opinion as such.

Regards,
Tom Kennedy



zk.kz
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Nov 2, 2005, 10:42 AM

Post #14 of 63 (204860 views)
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Give me break; the 109 is quite a bit faster then either the 36.7 or the 105. Heck the 105 or 36.7 can't even keep up with a J35


lat21
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Nov 2, 2005, 10:57 AM

Post #15 of 63 (204857 views)
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Hmm. Do those SA guys have it right after all? Maybe we can’t talk about sailing without it evolving into personal slams.

I think discussing the merits of PHRF ratings (whether from some “board hack” or not) is entirely related to sailing and it directly answers your question. Despite its flaws, PHRF ratings are going to be a pretty reliable performance predictor. The rating won’t tell you which might be faster in light air, heavy air, upwind or downwind. It will give you a good estimate of how the boat will do on average on a windward/leeward course which I think was your first question. PHRF are ratings not “an abstract computer guesstimate.” PHRF ratings are determined by:

“An initial handicap is assigned based on comparisons with similar yachts. The handicap may then be adjusted based on the performance of the class of the yacht.” But LR, you might want to take note; “In most fleets there is no credit for lack of sailing skill or boat preparation. The handicap is based on the yacht being sailed by a top notch crew with the best equipment.”

But let’s not clutter this up with facts. As to your second question, I will keep an eye out for people with a clue and let you know if I find them.

BTW, the word is, ‘anonymous’ not, ‘anonimous.’



Noncompusmentis
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Nov 2, 2005, 11:31 AM

Post #16 of 63 (204843 views)
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Because this forum has spell check your comment is arrogant and you deserve a good kick in the nuts.


davist
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Nov 2, 2005, 12:01 PM

Post #17 of 63 (204824 views)
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I agree that the 109 should be the overall fastest boat of the three, but LR said that he personally sailed higher and faster (I'm going to assume upwind) than a 109 on a 36.7. That statement makes sense as the 36.7 is a one trick pony. The 36.7 sails great upwind as it is well powered with the large powerful overlapping headsails, but can be quite a dog downwind with its tiny s-kite.


Sue_pository
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Nov 2, 2005, 1:44 PM

Post #18 of 63 (204778 views)
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I believe the J-109 wins, everyday of the week, and twice on Sundays. But it really depends what the tides are doing, how windy it is and if they are going clockwise or counterclockwise!



.....



---------------------------------------------------------
"Who could have possibly envisioned an erection — an election in Iraq at this point in history?" —George W. Bush, at the white House, Washington, D.C., Jan. 10, 2005


Attachments: mac26.jpg (47.5 KB)


zk.kz
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Nov 2, 2005, 1:46 PM

Post #19 of 63 (204775 views)
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Don't get me wrong the Beneslow is the best value but most often it is the slower boat ( it does somewhat depend on if you are comparing the OD configurations or not)

BTW the spelling checker doesn't work ( unless someone added the word Beneslow)


Lesbian Robot
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Nov 2, 2005, 1:52 PM

Post #20 of 63 (204767 views)
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<< if they are going clockwise or counterclockwise!

good point, Sue_P, if they are going counterclockwise Bene is clearly at an advantage over those sprit boats. I didn't think about it.

But since most Americas Cup races are mark-to-starboard roundings, how does that affect the wind shear turbulence near the marks? Are sails with stitching knots on the starboard side at an advantage?


nana says
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Nov 2, 2005, 1:54 PM

Post #21 of 63 (204766 views)
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any truth to wlis giving a 3 second credit to the 109's for using uk ultras?


nana says phrf is too confusing with all this +/- stuff.


D4DR
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Nov 2, 2005, 2:06 PM

Post #22 of 63 (204753 views)
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In Reply To
<< if they are going clockwise or counterclockwise!

good point, Sue_P, if they are going counterclockwise Bene is clearly at an advantage over those sprit boats. I didn't think about it.

But since most Americas Cup races are mark-to-starboard roundings, how does that affect the wind shear turbulence near the marks? Are sails with stitching knots on the starboard side at an advantage?


Is this also why the starboard sail number has to be above the portside one? windage higher aloft.


nana says
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Nov 2, 2005, 2:08 PM

Post #23 of 63 (204749 views)
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Is this also why the starboard sail number has to be above the portside one? windage higher aloft.



nana says windage aloft depends on the glue they use.


Sue_pository
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Nov 2, 2005, 2:09 PM

Post #24 of 63 (204754 views)
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Quote
<< if they are going clockwise or counterclockwise!

good point, Sue_P, if they are going counterclockwise Bene is clearly at an advantage over those sprit boats. I didn't think about it.

But since most Americas Cup races are mark-to-starboard roundings, how does that affect the wind shear turbulence near the marks? Are sails with stitching knots on the starboard side at an advantage?



That depends on the hemisphere they are racing in, my understanding is that the shear has little to no effect in the Southern hemishpere due to the lack of Coriolus effect at lower altitude. In the Northern Hemishpere, you can overcome that by staying on Starboard tack longer than you normally would. I also use parafin wax on all my exposed threads to help eliminate drag.



---------------------------------------------------------
"Who could have possibly envisioned an erection — an election in Iraq at this point in history?" —George W. Bush, at the white House, Washington, D.C., Jan. 10, 2005




D4DR
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Nov 2, 2005, 2:11 PM

Post #25 of 63 (204752 views)
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And the colour of the numbers - after all we all know that air flows across a zebras back because of the mix of black and white stripes.


Raw God
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Nov 2, 2005, 2:55 PM

Post #26 of 63 (203897 views)
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In Reply To
My only question is was he high at the time?




Thats not nice!!!!!!!!!!! you people are acting like ASS HATS. the man had a question please stay on topic!!


texas tim
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Nov 2, 2005, 2:59 PM

Post #27 of 63 (203890 views)
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yeah really, guys grow up. the original post was an interesting and valid question worthy of consideration.

I have personally sailed higher than all of you freaks.


Raw God
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Nov 2, 2005, 3:02 PM

Post #28 of 63 (203886 views)
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In Reply To
yeah really, guys grow up. the original post was an interesting and valid question worthy of consideration.

I have personally sailed higher than all of you freaks.



So you must have a CFMSD....................


texas tim
**

Nov 2, 2005, 3:06 PM

Post #29 of 63 (203882 views)
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well i did once, but the police took it away from me....they said they would
give it back once i learned how to wipe it right.

i'm sorry i guess i didn't understand the question. could you please rephrase that?


Danger
**

Nov 3, 2005, 10:02 AM

Post #30 of 63 (203763 views)
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What you guys are failing to mention is the ballbearings. Its all ballbearings these days. The J boats use english measured bearings, which in the northern hemisphere are preferred. The Bene of course has metric bearings. If it is widely known that metric bearings work better in the southern hemisphere, but what many of you may not know is that due to tidal flow, that may be counter-intuitive to your proposed intention, often times producing contrary results. So logic implies the J boat will outperform when the current is flooding in the north-western hemisphere unless of course it is a leap year and then all bets are off.


Mummy
****

Nov 3, 2005, 10:08 AM

Post #31 of 63 (203758 views)
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Hmmmm Danger. I only really notice those effects when my luff tape sticks. Otherwise I find it to be exactly opposite of what you are implying.


Danger
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Nov 3, 2005, 10:10 AM

Post #32 of 63 (203757 views)
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You must be Irish


coiler
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Nov 3, 2005, 10:16 AM

Post #33 of 63 (203753 views)
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I would go for the j109 but it would depend on the wind strength, in the very light the j105 would come close.
you would win in the beneteau under IRC if you had a French certificate!

Wink
So much water, too little time!


Mummy
****

Nov 3, 2005, 10:21 AM

Post #34 of 63 (203751 views)
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Hmmmm, how did you know?! ALthough I think it is the scotch in me that screws up my luff tape.


Sue_pository
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Nov 3, 2005, 10:41 AM

Post #35 of 63 (203741 views)
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What is a CSMSD? Can you get them at West Marine?



---------------------------------------------------------
"Who could have possibly envisioned an erection — an election in Iraq at this point in history?" —George W. Bush, at the white House, Washington, D.C., Jan. 10, 2005


Can2728
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Nov 3, 2005, 1:51 PM

Post #36 of 63 (203704 views)
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In Reply To
Macgregor 26x, faster than all of them combined

your gay....Frank...your gay


Butt Funny
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Nov 3, 2005, 3:35 PM

Post #37 of 63 (203679 views)
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But is it true the Bene has metric bearings, now they're built in the US? At some stage, they're bound to use locally produced bearings, so it may well become a question of whether your Bene is a metric or imperial one - this may well affect resale value - some unscrupulous vendors may try to pass off metric Benes as imperials!


Sinner
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Nov 3, 2005, 3:36 PM

Post #38 of 63 (203677 views)
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In the light you'd really want a CF 27! Nice one for sale, see 'racing on the cheap' thread, 8,900!


Anonymous Guest
***

Nov 3, 2005, 3:39 PM

Post #39 of 63 (203321 views)
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Yoou're all wrong, the clear answer is a NYYC Swan 42


DickDastardly
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Nov 3, 2005, 6:45 PM

Post #40 of 63 (203306 views)
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In Reply To
And the colour of the numbers - after all we all know that air flows across a zebras back because of the mix of black and white stripes.


You say that in jest, but perhaps you don't realize it is true!

Consider, -- the color white reflects heat, while the color black absobs heat. When heat from the sun is absorbed, heat waves are produced. Heat rises. Think sailplanes and termal currents. As heat rises it creats a faint breeze. Meanwhile the white color is refecting heat and doesn't produce any "thermals".

When the zebra's black color causes these differences in gradient surface temperatures with the white, it is entirely possible that it changes (or at least impacts) the airflow.

Now, transfer this concept to a sailboat sails. Black sails will ALWAYS be faster than white ones, because of this heating of sail material and the change in boundry layer temperatures. It is found that air moves across black boundry layers much faster than when the color is white and thus one can gain a margin of speed differential from dark colored (or black) sails. I believe I read where North Sails has done an extensive research on this matter and was one reason everyone has pursued black carbon sails. Heat absorption and resulting differential in boundry layer temperatures have possibly proven this theory. Just consider that the entire sailmaking industry has moved from white (Dacron) to gold (Kevlar) to grey/silver (Mylar) to black (Carbon) sails during the last few years. I think there has to be a technical reason for these color choice changes.


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