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Forum Index: .: Dock Talk:
SF Bay as AC Venue ???
Team McLube

 



FlaBoatBum
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Nov 9, 2006, 9:56 PM

Post #1 of 22 (52005 views)
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SF Bay as AC Venue ??? Log-In to Post/Reply

This subject surfaced in this morning's Scuttlebutt. As a former SF Bay Coast Guardsman and later a Finn sailor and RC Committee member at StFYC, I love SF Bay. But as a venue for an America's Cup, totally impractical in my view. Tactics are so tide dependent I for one, cannot picture a fair AC style race course overlapping a major ship traffic channel. Summer time brings ferocious wind blasting through the Golden Gate...throw in a fierce ebb and for good luck, an inbound 800 ft. container ship. One AC course let alone more for trials? no way. Sorry Larry.


Weekend Warrior
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Nov 13, 2006, 7:10 AM

Post #2 of 22 (51960 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

You are wrong, it would be great there.

In Reply To
G. E. Kriese
www.OceanRacing.com


sailirc
*

Nov 13, 2006, 2:43 PM

Post #3 of 22 (51951 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

SF would be an awesom place to race the America's Cup. The new IACC boats have raced there several times with great sucess and spectator access. The TV rights alone would be worth $millions.


dbs01
**

Nov 13, 2006, 5:31 PM

Post #4 of 22 (51946 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I'm not so sure.

Watching the Allianz Cup for the first few days was great - with the wind coming from the north (i.e. cross current) there was tons of passing, luffing, exciting stuff.

Everyone kept saying - just wait til the real weather gets here.

Well, it got there on Sunday - sea breeze coming right in with the tide. As so as someone rounded the top mark, they were gone. Races were decided, for the most part, at the start. With the exception of some great stuff between Ainslie and Baird at one top mark, and Dickson/Cian at one bottom mark, there wasn't much to speak of. Not nearly as much as there had been on Friday and Saturday.

And we haven't even talked about VERY large commercial traffic.

It would be great to be able to watch from that close in shore, but I'm not sure how good the racing would be.


FlaBoatBum
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Dec 3, 2006, 12:58 PM

Post #5 of 22 (51853 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

FOLLOWUP Surprised there haven't been more comments on this topic. Although it's premature to predict that SF Bay ever will be a venue for a future America's Cup, it's interesting brain candy.

After more thinking after my original post, I also wondered about where would the shoreside bases be located? Sausalito? Doubtful. City front? Where? Treasure Island? Maybe.

Resources The BMW/Oracle home club is Golden Gate YC. Does that samll club really have the wherewithall to host a Americas's Cup with Acts or whatever ongoing lead-up format? Even the resources of St. Francis YC would be strechted thin.

Spectator/Visitor considerations...No way can SF Bay come close to what has been done in Valencia. Mega Yacht moorings and docks becasue there is no central focus point...except maybe Treasure island but haveing been long absent from SF Bay myself, totally unsure asbout that. Stir in a sizeable spectator fleet on prime race days and we have a body of water bounded on 3 sides unable to make everyone happy.

Course lay-out? Once agin...where? Can there be fair 16-22 mile windward-leeward courses laid out between the Oakland Bay Bridge and the Golden Gate bridge?
Previous small scale AC boats "demonstration regattas" (for lack of a better term)
have had sucess, but this thread is about the real deal measured in years. Tidal currents are the dominant tactics factor in picking sides. Move south of the Oakland Bay Bridge for open water...spectator appeal goes out the door.

Weather Huge difference by time-of-year. Would challengers find this attractive?
Because of tidal driven tactics, local knowlege become paramount.

Look forward to some debate....Thanks


Montrose
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Dec 5, 2006, 9:07 AM

Post #6 of 22 (51837 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Pull off your blue blazer and brenton reef reds and think out of the box. The quicker this event gets away from some of the traditions, the more it can accomplish. The Bay is perfect to create a 'made for tv' event. The pure racing will suffer, but this event is moving away from being a pure speed contest. The 2007 Cup will be more about the quality of the sailors than ever before, and not about who spent more money designing the best boat. Sailing the Cup in the Bay will be ALL about the sailors, and the obstacles and scenery are what is missing for the tv viewer.


------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Elvestrom, "If, in the course of victory you have not won the respect of your competitors, you have won nothing at all."


FlaBoatBum
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Dec 6, 2006, 5:13 PM

Post #7 of 22 (51827 views)
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Re: [Montrose] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Montrose, Thanks for the reply, but I disagree, here is why. SF Bay is simply too small and too congested with commercial traffic. TV cameras will still need to be water bourne or shore side with untra long lenes, or air bourne. The 2 prime players for US TV being OLN or ESPN could care less based on past (ratings) experience. Euro and Int'l broadcasters might have an interest if the market was suitable for the sponsor brands AND the venue offered interesting racing. Please do a map search for SF Bay (I did) ...look at the dimensions...ehh, may not work.

Unlike most US coastal cities, San Franicisco has an exceptional die hard sailing population, but in my opinion, specatator interest could fade rapidly if the AC Series went on for YEARS. An alternate venue? heck, I don't know...I started this thread for discussion purposes.

BTW, I don't own a blue blazer.
Cheers


Montrose
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Dec 7, 2006, 6:08 AM

Post #8 of 22 (51819 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Didn't the Moet Cup in SF succeed?

A SF event would NOT be your father's America's Cup. This would be very different for all the reasons you have outlined. The race legs will be short, the landscape confined, the obstacles many. Hate to say it, but it will be what people who seek more sailing on TV have been craving for. The racing will be "made for tv." This is likely the only premier sailing event that can get away with such drastic changes. And the changes will not be to lure tv and sponsors, but to merely adapt to the bay. However, these changes will play perfectly for better coverage, both by spectators and cameras.

Perhaps the bigger question is if the logistics could be worked out with the local enforcement authorities.


Snappy
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Dec 11, 2006, 5:53 PM

Post #9 of 22 (51769 views)
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Re: [dbs01] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The Allianz Cup never would have been held that time of year if they had their choice. The event got confirmed after the YC calendar had been filled in, and the only dates left were in the fall when the Bay breeze is squirrelly at best. The wind for that event was so rare... not even worth worrying about. Also, let's not forget how many days were lost in New Zealand due to inadequate winds. LOTS!


southernman
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Dec 21, 2006, 11:17 PM

Post #10 of 22 (51713 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Sorry Fla BoatBum for what I am about to spew forthward...lol

Other than some consideration from the shipping companies to adjust their schedules...similar to LA during the 84 Olympics, (NO TRUCKS IN THE DAYTIME ON THE FWY), this is the Venue which could be the goose. Windy goose at that- Boy howdy!

With all the talk about 'we need something for the Olympics to catapolt our sport........." yada yada.....WE'VE got it in the Bay.

Talk about showing our wares as a sport ???!??? This is awesome. Talk about media attention! Let them get caught in an eddy or two. Not our boys!
It's one of the best venues to watch the Americas Cup from the shore. I'm sorry ALL the shores. Are you kidding me ??????????? Those retired Vets will be selling binocs on every corner instead of cleaning windows!!!

Local knowledge is learned like every other venue--Someone named DC tamed the Dr. in far far off Aussieland...darn right he did.

No. The Bay has proven to be a spectacular venue. Isn't the Big Boat series up yar ? I remember when it was a BIG BOAT series with Windward Passage-Black Fin-Ondine-Barient-Storm Vogel-ALL the Kialoa's-and so many worthy others.....

Those crazy euros are at a fever pitch from all them 'acts' and stuff for the last few years. They're gonna blow in August '07 to be sure.

Yes. This will be just fine and thankyverymuch Mr. Ellison. I'll be rootin for yous guys to bring it home so we can really strut our stuff !!!!

The interstate hasn't seen what traffic is until 'AC in da Bay'





southernman
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Dec 21, 2006, 11:28 PM

Post #11 of 22 (51711 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

details-details-details :)------that could all be worked out by the folks(man) what brought it home.

It's Larry Freakin Ellison ! He's got a few buddies with a bit of change as well. Whatever Larry wants....Larry will get. And no whinning by us either way will deter him from that.

Good discussion nevertheless.

Can you imagine something like this, here in Cali ? Oh brother. Dreams are grand!!!


southernman
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Dec 21, 2006, 11:30 PM

Post #12 of 22 (51710 views)
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Re: [Weekend Warrior] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

ayyyyyy! You bet- dibs on shotgun !


FlaBoatBum
***

Dec 22, 2006, 5:33 PM

Post #13 of 22 (51702 views)
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Re: [southernman] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Well Southernman, your comments are certainly optimistic to say the least.

The Big Boat Series is indeed a spectacular event and specatator friendly. I've been crew and RC at StFYC for that series. What you fail to recognize is that the America's Cup is NOT a 6-7 day annual Fall regatta. By it's very nature, the AC program lasts for months. Some months the wind blows, other months there is little wind and that is variable. The tides rush in and out regardless of the wind "season."

Do you seriously think that inbound and outbound commercial (giant container ships) traffic is going to "adjust" it's time sensitive cargo deliveries just for some rag boaters? Ain't gonna happen.

The America's Cup has historically been held on large open bodies of water whether Auckland, Freemantle, Newport or Valencia. My (repeated) point is that San Francisco bay is pure & simple too small and too congested, pocket books not withstanding.

Merry Christmas


southernman
****


Dec 22, 2006, 6:49 PM

Post #14 of 22 (51700 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

    

Your comments are good indeed. So you're not just a curmudgeon....I hadn't considered the many months issue......well done ! This would be the only issue in my opinion to raise questions...hmmm.

So....which body of water, in your opinion offers the best opportunity for all aspects ?

Isn't there any other space in the Bay (near Berkeley) which could be used for the trials ?

Here's another question...if they (pocket book types) are considering making the AC circuit resemble the F1 circuit with teams moving from venue to venue, how can this be accomplished if the traditional venue for the AC is a stagnant one mostly due to the tremendous build up in real estate leading up to the cup.

A friend of mine recently chartered a Melges 30...he said the boat was never used, showed up at the regatta in a 'box'...they unwrapped her and off they went to race. Can the AC program be more like this ? Quick turn on and turn off ? If it can slowly evolve into this type of a deal, then there is a chance that a 'bleecher' venue like San Francisco has merit. The media focus from Alcatraz would be awesome.

So here's my shot: Use various venues along California coast...Long Beach and the Bay. The logistics I 'm gonna bail on...sorry. I'll leave it to the deep pockets to figure it out.

Something I always liked about sailing is the mind set of most of the sailors, both women and men. We seem to believe that evolution had something to do with getting us here. My optimistic being is gonna have to believe that there is a future in San Francisco with some tweaking and pumping off that wave...

Merry Christmas to you, sir

jm





southernman
****


Dec 22, 2006, 6:56 PM

Post #15 of 22 (51698 views)
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Re: [Montrose] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

OK Montrose. How we gonna get this done ? BoatBum guy is right about the many months thing. He's a stumper , he is.

I agree with you about adaptation...but perhaps the whole program needs to evolve a few more years.....to fit into the Bay.

say it aint so....


FlaBoatBum
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May 20, 2007, 8:30 PM

Post #16 of 22 (51549 views)
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Re: [southernman] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Looks like it's all a moot point now. Too bad BMWOR can pack it up and go home now.


Kenny G
**

Jun 16, 2007, 6:11 AM

Post #17 of 22 (51117 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Interesting thread. One thing that would have to be agreed on is altering the deed of trust. It says that the race must be held outside the headlands.

It will come back to the US and possibly SF when someone with money and faith in American sailors comes forward. Not some team of Kiwi's on an American boat. Just my dos centavos.

Cheers,
KG



Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad
judgment. Will Rogers


southernman
****


Jun 21, 2007, 10:59 PM

Post #18 of 22 (50905 views)
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Boy Howdy!

I've been cruising since Feb 15th and I've missed almost everything except this news when it happened.

Need more info on the letdown or was it a meltdown........yikes


optialex
*

Aug 1, 2007, 9:43 PM

Post #19 of 22 (50197 views)
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Re: [Weekend Warrior] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I think SF bay would be a great place to hold the 33rd Americas Cup with good swells and a steady breeze it would be similar to Auckland but the conditions would be more consistent


Guest
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pptous@hotmail.com

Aug 13, 2007, 6:05 AM

Post #20 of 22 (50085 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

FlaBoatBum, you are absolutely right. But hey, I have an idea to solve all these problems with the America's Cup. Remember back in the 70's, the Laser slaloms in front of St. Francis? Let's stuff Ernesto & Larry into Lasers and let them hammer it out on the winward-leeward slalom course, and close enough to shore that we can throw stones at them. Now that would be fun! Pepe


FlaBoatBum
***

Aug 17, 2007, 10:30 AM

Post #21 of 22 (50031 views)
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Hey Pepe,
Great idea! Yes indeedy I remember the Laser Slalom format as I happened to be the RC Chairman of the first one at St Francis YC. Talk about great TV too! Ernesto and Larry going head-to-head would be "priceless". Thanks for the idea.


Chunkles
*

Sep 12, 2007, 2:43 AM

Post #22 of 22 (49756 views)
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Re: [FlaBoatBum] SF Bay as AC Venue ??? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I was once dead-set against the idea of holding an AC on the Bay. No way is could work, I figured. Then I got involved in the Moet Cup event, between Oracle and Alinghi. The week before the event, Oracle did some 2 boat testing just south of Angel Island, and my skepticism went right out the window. Shipping traffic was not a problem, the tides have less of an effect in that area, in short, it worked. And just imagine if Angel Island itself could be used as a spectator "grandstand"?

For what it's worth, I was also dead-set against the 1984 Olympics in L.A. I was wrong then, too. Tongue


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