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Forum Index: .: Dock Talk:
Leward Mark Rounding Question
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Bird Man
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Oct 30, 2005, 9:50 PM

Post #1 of 9 (25358 views)
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Leward Mark Rounding Question Log-In to Post/Reply

This situation happened over the summer at a qualifying regatta for Lightning NA's. conditions were 20-25 with 3-5ft waves

3 boats on port are in line coming down wind into the 2 boat length circle. a starboard board boat comes in on a hot reach and hails starboard. the first boat makes it past the starboard boat. the second boat begins to give the starboard boat room when the starboard boat gybes and attempts to round the mark inside of the first boat. the second boat hails protest for gybing inside the 2 boat length circle, the first boat yells protest because the starboard boat did not have room. the starboard boat yells protest for having to avoid all three boats by gybing. im preatty sure that the starboard boat, before he gybed, had rights, but after that im not sure at all. can any of you shed some light on the situation.


klegler
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Oct 31, 2005, 6:42 AM

Post #2 of 9 (25330 views)
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Re: [Bird Man] Leward Mark Rounding Question [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Though I'm a student of the rules, I'm not the expert old friend Dave
Perry is. Of the many things I have learned from Dave is to read the
preambles..

Section C (rules 18 & 19), preamble: To the extent that a Section C rule
conflicts with a rule in Section A or B, the section C rule takes
precedence.

The starboard boat (S) has right of way (rule 10) and room (rule 18.2)
over the second and third port boats (P2 & P3) and possibly the first
boat (P1) as well. The text is unclear as to whether S has room on P1;
lets assume it does. P2's protest against S for gybing has no merit.
There is no rule against gybing, unlike 18.3 Tacking at a Mark. Just
the opposite, according to 18.4 Gybing, S is obligated to gybe. After
S gybes, it no longer has right of way (rule 11) but it is entitled to
room (rule 18.2 taking precedence over rule 11). Meanwhile P1, P2, and
P3 are all obligated to give S room to round which includes gybing.
Assuming it gets that room, there is no foul. If S does not get room
from P1, then P1 has fouled. If S is not entitled to room from P1 (no
overlap when P1 entered zone) then S has fouled P1. Had S continued on
starboard then S would have fouled P2 by not gybing per 18.4. P3 might
also get fouled when S does not gybe but if P3 is smart, it goes behind
S and rounds, passing both S and P2 while keeping its mouth shut.


Steve Gregory
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Oct 31, 2005, 10:38 AM

Post #3 of 9 (25322 views)
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Re: [Bird Man] Leward Mark Rounding Question [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

There are a few holes in the scenario, but my guess is that the starboard boat (S) had room on all three port tack boats. The fact that S had to gybe is immaterial, as you are allowed to gybe if it is part of rounding the mark. If P1 needed to give room at two boat lengths, but got across S's bow inside of two lengths, good on P1 but it doesn't negate their responsibilty.

Heh Bird Man, how did the Protest Committee resolve this?





Bird Man
***


Oct 31, 2005, 3:16 PM

Post #4 of 9 (25310 views)
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Re: [Steve Gregory] Leward Mark Rounding Question [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

For some unknown reason, the protests were not filed. This type of situation keeps coming up at leward mark roundings so i wanted to get some closure on it.


wsimpson
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Oct 31, 2005, 7:04 PM

Post #5 of 9 (25254 views)
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The rules are written for situations between two boats. Iíll assume the leading port boat (P1) was clear ahead of the starboard boat (S) when P1 entered the 2BLZ. S had no rights to room and had to keep clear of P1 under rule 18.2(c). This is due to the preamble of RRS 18 in which Section C rules (when they apply) take precedence over Section A rules; thus rule 10 was shut off . The second port boat (P2) probably overlapped S, when they reached the 2BLZ, and therefore S could claim room from P2 at the mark under rule 18.2(b). Rule 10 continued to apply to S and P2 because there was no conflict between rule 18 and rule 10; so S also had rights under rule 10 until she gybed. After she gybed, S had rights to room under 18.2(c). S is liable to be DSQ for breaking rule 18.2(c) - failing to keep clear of P1. If P2 did not keep clear of S, she could also be tossed. P3, as the training boat, had to keep clear of P2 under rule 18.2(c), and S under rule 10 during the rounding. After S gybed, P2 had to give S room under rule 18.2(c).


RiskyBiz30
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Nov 1, 2005, 9:59 AM

Post #6 of 9 (24973 views)
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Re: [Bird Man] Leward Mark Rounding Question [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

UK / Halsey website has a nice Rules Quiz section. Check out Quiz #2. It sounds similar to this example but we need a little more info to make the correct decision. You have to register but it's worth it.

http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/index.asp


Snaggletooth
Deleted

Nov 1, 2005, 5:09 PM

Post #7 of 9 (24869 views)
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In Reply To
UK / Halsey website has a nice Rules Quiz section. Check out Quiz #2. It sounds similar to this example but we need a little more info to make the correct decision. You have to register but it's worth it.

http://www.ukhalsey.com/RulesQuiz/index.asp

I didn't like all the pesky e-mails you got after registering.


ForedeckSkuffle
**

Nov 2, 2005, 5:31 PM

Post #8 of 9 (24785 views)
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Re: [Bird Man] Leward Mark Rounding Question [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Sail a J105 and just forget those pesky P/S & W/L rules. And you can easily run over any Lightning's that get in your way.





Bird Man
***


Nov 2, 2005, 6:39 PM

Post #9 of 9 (24769 views)
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105's are a waste of fiberglass, and money. they are underpowered, slow horribly sailed cruising boats. if you have ever raced in a deacent one deisgn class you would know that they S!@#. for the price of a new boat you could get a cool boat like a farr40 orif you are pressed for crew a mumm30. go sail a real boat.


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