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Amateur vs Professional Sailor
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SailTrim
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Feb 13, 2006, 5:06 PM

Post #1 of 10 (13208 views)
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Amateur vs Professional Sailor Log-In to Post/Reply

What is the understood definition of whether or not you are an amateur or professional sailor/racer? ~ a recent debate I was having needs clarification.


PaulK
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Feb 13, 2006, 5:55 PM

Post #2 of 10 (13206 views)
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Re: [SailTrim] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Best thing to do is to check the ISAF definition at http://sailing.org
The site is not particularly user-friendly, but you'll find it there somewhere.


SailTrim
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Feb 14, 2006, 5:35 AM

Post #3 of 10 (13180 views)
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Re: [PaulK] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Thank you ~ that is what started the friendly debate, being ranked as a professional cat 3 when you've never been "paid" to race, however; working in an industry related career can inadvertently deem you a professional sailor. I am under the feeling that in order to be a professional in any sport, you must be "paid" to perform that sport. If one chooses to work in the industry for whatever reason and their hobbie is to race and on occassion their work requires them to particpate and work at events (service, booth, etc), however, their time on the water is not on the clock . . . are they an amateur or professional in the communities eyes?


srp
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Feb 14, 2006, 11:24 AM

Post #4 of 10 (13171 views)
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Re: [SailTrim] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

the whole pro/am debate will go forever. owners who do not always do well will protest the pros on the boat. i am someone who has been on the bad end of the stick because of my job(rigger). i believe that it is the sailors responsability to make sure his cat number is correct, and to be honest with what he "works" on. however, is it fair to become a three just because you made some guy a halyard, and then around the bouys with them. i think not, but then again i did'nt make the rules. a pro is a pro, and pros get paid, end of story.


PaulK
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Feb 14, 2006, 6:51 PM

Post #5 of 10 (13143 views)
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Re: [SailTrim] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

This makes me wonder if the staff at ISAF is considered Cat 3 also. They get paid, and it's industry-related, by definition. How do we check?


SailTrim
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Feb 15, 2006, 5:33 AM

Post #6 of 10 (13129 views)
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Re: [PaulK] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Do they get paid to race?


PaulK
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Feb 15, 2006, 2:23 PM

Post #7 of 10 (13114 views)
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Re: [SailTrim] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

This is what I found tucked away on the ISAF website Quote:
(c)           A competitor, who is not a Group 3 competitor and any of whose work at any time in the 12 months before the Classification Date has been in a marine business or organization, is:

(i)            a Group 1 competitor if the work does not utilize or require knowledge or skill capable of contributing to the performance of a boat or boats in a race or series, and is limited to being an investor, business adviser, manager, administrator or production worker, provided that he or she is not for any other reason a Group 2 or 3 competitor otherwise;

(ii)           a Group 2 competitor.
Unquote.
A rigger who makes someone a halyard doesn't get paid to race, but, as I read the above, would be considered a Group 2 professional since he works in the sailing industry and what he knows about making halyards certainly contributes to the performance of racing boats. (If he didn't know his stuff, the halyard would fail...) If he actually crewed on the boat he made the halyard for, he'd be Group 3. (That section was too long to warrant pasting here.)
People on staff at ISAF are by definition working in the industry. If their knowledge used at work doesn't contribute to the performance of racing boats - knowing the racing rules, knowing about ratings or other racing requirements -- they should be fired, since they're obviously not needed at ISAF and are of no help to us sailors. If what they know does help us sail better, then they are all by definition at least Group 2.

I went onto the ISAF website, but it didn't show any paid staff that I checked listed as category 1, 2 or 3. Maybe that function isn't working properly.


SailTrim
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Feb 15, 2006, 4:32 PM

Post #8 of 10 (13110 views)
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Re: [PaulK] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Oh man ~ well thank you for digging ino this and your input. The subjective nature of their descriptions helped add fuel to the fire for my little debate earlier this week. I have to get "labeled" and not happy about how they go about it at all, especially learning that I could lose crew opportunities if I get deemed a cat 2-3 . . . just because I work in the industry.


matt
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Apr 5, 2006, 7:08 PM

Post #9 of 10 (12847 views)
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Re: [PaulK] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I must preface this by saying that I should probably read the rule more completely prior to writing this but it's an interesting topic of debate, and a source of much stress for many...

What about those with an "economic incentive to race/compete". For example say a "Wealth Manager" who is a very talented sailor and just happens to race with an important client(s)? Is this person to be considered "amateur"? This wealth manager could be someone of any profession however if they have the economic incentive to compete with the teams they are on, should they not be considered professional... if afterall they professionally and financially benefit from competing? It's just an interesting example seeing as it is completely unrelated to the marine industry however surely indicates a potentially tremendous economic incentive depending on who the client may be -that wealth manager may benefit more than any of the "paid" crew.

On the flip side, take the example of a rigger as stated in other posts: If this rigger and the rigger's business specialized on the cruising boat market and actually turned down work on race-boats in addition to turning down invitations to go do small local races on customer boats. This rigger also had a great passion for sailboat racing and consistently did so but avoided all economic & professional incentives while still competing, is this rigger to be considered a "Professional" when said rigger does not have an economic incentive?

It shouldn't be as cut-dry as getting a pay check after the sails are put away, and it shouldn't be as blanketed as saying a 'marine industry professional' especially when this "blanket" I mention is in actuality too narrowly focused. I contend that the true definition should be where the incentive lies.

My $0.02


pepstein
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Apr 7, 2006, 4:05 AM

Post #10 of 10 (12765 views)
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Re: [matt] Amateur vs Professional Sailor [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I work in the industry. I was a crew member on a J105 last year and was told that I needed to register with the ISAF to receive an "official" determination of my status. I filled out all of the application openly and honestly without any embellishment or obfuscation. I was anticipating a ruling of Cat 2 because I did not meet the "paid" definitions as set out on the ISAF website. My application came back with a judgement of Cat 3. What the &%$#? So I quoted their website rules and rebutted all of the category 3 determining factors in my appeal. The appeal came back with the Cat 3 status standing. "My job and my experience go "hand in glove", therefore the ruling of Cat 3 stands."

So, I was off the J105 because the only person that could be a Cat 3 is an owner. I was miffed. But now must live with it or find another job.


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