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Sailors view: Canting Keel in Bermuda Demo Division Only
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YachtTech
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Jan 29, 2006, 7:25 AM

Post #1 of 21 (65342 views)
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Sailors view: Canting Keel in Bermuda Demo Division Only Log-In to Post/Reply

The Bermuda Race NOR limits Canting Keel boats to the "Demonstration Division" only (section 4.1.6) and limits scoring to ORR only (section 4.6.1). Canting Keel boats have obtained ratings under IRC for years, and have already competed in Australian, US and Med races. They also raced (safely) in the 2004 Bermuda race (under the demonstration divisions already), 2005 Transpac, 2005 Cabo, and most recent Sydney-Hobart race. This technology is not going away. Seems like preservation of the status quo and arbitrary. Anyone know why?





dumbassideaMkII
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Jan 29, 2006, 4:48 PM

Post #2 of 21 (65314 views)
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Re: [YachtTech] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

because its an american race and here in the U.S. people organizing major races are usually complete morons about these things. Just look at the Transpac.


Swuzzlebubble
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Jan 31, 2006, 5:20 PM

Post #3 of 21 (65254 views)
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Re: [dumbassideaMkII] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Race organisers need to be careful about what they permit.
Take for example the sailing instructions for Geelong Week (last week).
1.7 of ‘rules’ deletes the first sentence of RRS 51.
It is therefore open slather to ‘stack’ any ballast you like: internal ballast, batteries, water, fuel, sails, gear bags etc.
Centre-boarders can lift their keels too.
Where to we draw the line?

Skandia Geelong Week comprises the Royal Geelong Yacht Club 142nd Regatta and the Scotchmans Hill Keel Boat Series.
1. RULES
1.1 The regatta shall be governed by the “rules” as defined in the 2005 - 2008 ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS), Yachting Australia (YA)
Special Regulations and the applicable Class Rules, except as any of these are changed by the sailing instructions.
1.2 The Regatta is classified as Category C. All boats shall display the supplied ‘SKANDIA’ Bow logos and backstay pennants.
1.3 No race shall be conducted if there are less than 5 entries.
1.4 A National Jury has been appointed in accordance with RRS YA Addendum A for this regatta.
1.5 Certificate of Measurement and responsibility for measuring of yachts shall be with the Class Association.
1.6 RRS 50.2 is amended by adding an extra sentence to read “Fixed and retractable spinnaker poles not attached to the foremost of the masts
shall be permitted for the purpose of setting asymmetrical spinnakers”
1.7 RRS 51 is amended by deleting the first sentence.
1.8 RRS 52 shall not apply.
1.9 Yachts shall NOT carry anchors protruding beyond the bow whilst racing.
1.10 SPECAL REGULATIONS
The following YA Special Regulations Categories shall apply:…..

From the RRS:

51 MOVABLE BALLAST
All movable ballast shall be properly stowed, and water, dead weight
or ballast shall not be moved for the purpose of changing trim or
stability. Floorboards, bulkheads, doors, stairs and water tanks shall
be left in place and all cabin fixtures kept on board.
52 MANUAL POWER
A boat’s standing rigging, running rigging, spars and movable hull
appendages shall be adjusted and operated only by manual power.



Tim Dick
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Feb 1, 2006, 6:34 PM

Post #4 of 21 (65221 views)
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Re: [YachtTech] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Perhaps the organizers are trying for a lower key race which is tailored to the local's desires and intentionally does not attract the top international barn-door racers. The major ocean races separate boat classes by IRC rating, but let all classes compete for overall winner. This formula has been successful under IRC. Transpac 2005, Morning Glory took the barn door & 1st in class, but 8th overall, with 1st overall going to 5 year old Transpac 52 Rosebud. Fastnet 2005 was won overall by a 30 year old boat racing IRC.

IMHO canting keels can be safe and competed successfully against conventional boats under IRC.


Montrose
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Feb 2, 2006, 4:44 AM

Post #5 of 21 (65192 views)
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Re: [YachtTech] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Canters are not going away, but they also are not mainstream either. Maybe its the Bermuda influence as I recall they are a pretty conservative country. Unless they have changed their laws, they used to prohibit wearing hair curlers in public, and I think they came down pretty hard on homosexuality too. I am sure there's more.


------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Elvestrom, "If, in the course of victory you have not won the respect of your competitors, you have won nothing at all."


kehew
*

Feb 2, 2006, 8:45 AM

Post #6 of 21 (65162 views)
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Re: [YachtTech] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Why trash the race organizers? They are allowing canting keels as a demonstration division. i would ask why a boat that can only compete with an engine on all the time and needs mechanical power to move the ballast would ever be allowed in the same race? When they can move the canting keel with manual crew power and they have a fair rating for having the advantage of a canting keel, then they can compete in the sailboat race.

Line honors at the Sydney - Hobart going to a boat that doesn't meet the basic rules of a sailboat competition is a joke. Great to push the technology envelope, but please race in a separate category! Leave the line honor race to boats that race under the same level playing field.

I wonder if these maxi's would even be built if they were not eligible to race for the "line honors". The fact the upper echelon races have allowed them to race by "changing" the rules only proves that money drives everything!But let's be honest, these things are power boats. Canting keels may be here to stay but until they are swung manually, I am not interested in being in the same race. Apples and oranges...


YachtTech
**

Feb 2, 2006, 9:46 AM

Post #7 of 21 (65158 views)
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Re: [kehew] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Using logic that they have an "unfair advantage" could have been applied to an infinite number of technical advances including but not limited to fiberglass hulls, kevlar hulls, carbon hulls, carbon masts, PBO rigging, carbon (non cloth) sails, and even the basic separation of the keel from the rudder over 40 years ago. Cries of "unfair" smack of similar reactions when the Australians took home the America's Cup in '83 over an "unfair" keel design. The world thought outherwise, and viewed race organizers as a "sore loser" crowd for quite some time.

Canting keels are simply a design, technical, and construction advance that mark progress and interest in the sport, and that hould be embraced, not feared. As to a fair rating, IRC seems to rate them fairly as non canting keel boats have many times beaten canting keel boats including recent wins in Australia and California. Further, the Transpac '05 rating system proved non-canting keel boats don't have any edge for overall wins or even top three finishes. As to the motor, the engine is not used for propulsion. In fact, many canting keel boats now do not use engines for power.

It would be good to hear from the race organizers just exactly what they expect the canting keel boats to "demonstrate" in 2006 that they did not demonstrate in 2004.


kehew
*

Feb 2, 2006, 10:43 AM

Post #8 of 21 (65147 views)
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Re: [YachtTech] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Your points are well taken. However, there is a fundamental difference between the materials technology issue v the manpower / crew isue. I'm all for the advance of technology, I just don't get the leap of faith that all of a sudden lets mechanical assistance into the game.

If mechanical assistance is ok for the keel, why not the winches, and so on...

I will concede this is not a new problem as you could make the same arguement that we should not be allowed to use any kind of electronics such as knot meters, gps etc...

Anyway, I still think a boat requiring engine use or hydraulics is a different category. As for a canting keel that requires only manual crew power, sign me up!

Cheers!

Mike


Guest
Deleted
More BIgRig weigh-ins

Feb 7, 2006, 9:46 PM

Post #9 of 21 (65012 views)
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Re: [kehew] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

CBTF technology will only be proper sailing technology when the boats turn off their engines and make the crews grind the keels. The "technology" belongs in the same basket as electric winches. The minute internal combustion occurs in an enclosed cylinder and that energy is transmitted via whatever linkeage to assist in propulsion of a sailing yacht, that yacht is no longer sailing and is more aptly termed a motorsailer at that point.


Guest
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Feb 8, 2006, 12:17 AM

Post #10 of 21 (65007 views)
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Re: [Guest] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

But, another thing is that I know of someone who has a powered backstay on their Cruiser/Racer and can't use that...

It just a little electrically powered cylinder which means that he nor his wofe have to sweat on a handle when they want some backstay - they just press a button...

But the R/C won't allow that :(


Guest
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Feb 8, 2006, 8:36 AM

Post #11 of 21 (64963 views)
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Re: [Guest] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Since everyone is a guest it is hard to respond, but to the the guy who think canting keels are akin to propulsion, I assume that you do not use batteries or your engine to charge them and of course you could not use a GPS or a watermaker that requires the engine to be running correct? Cause that would be using internal combustion to get where you're going faster, safer and easier right???
Also I would like to know how canting keel boats motor without using the engine as someone put it in one of these two threads.


Guest
Deleted

Feb 9, 2006, 7:46 PM

Post #12 of 21 (64898 views)
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Re: [Guest] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

GPS and watermaker are directly related to the safety of the crew and seaworthiness of the vessel. A canted keel is the opposite, it implies direct mechanical advantage to the sailplan via internal combustion. Charging batteries is one thing, geometrically loading the sailplan is quite another.

FWIW, I think a separate division called the Motorized Keel Division" would be quite appropos.
Andy


Bird Man
***


Feb 10, 2006, 2:02 AM

Post #13 of 21 (64894 views)
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Re: [Guest] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

A: Dont knock canting keels untill you have sailed on a boat with one.
B: Everyone who is using the guest feature to post, take the five min. and sign up, dont be gay and hide your name
C: If the race orginizers want to be old fashion new englanders who want there classic scooners with 3 masts and 25 sails, and dont want to step out of the 1800's and into the 21st century, let them. As the sport of sailing grows, the number of entrees will slowly fall untill they realize they have to eat crow and let canting keel boats race with everyone else. They might also realize what has been restated tons of times over, and re proven a many times, nothing says that canting keels are going to win on corrected time.
D: Personally I feel that most people cannot afford a canting keel boat at this current time, or a boat that will contend for line honors, so I would be estatic if i won on corrected time and my guess is that so would 190 out of the 200 projected owners in this years race. Let the big guys race, if brings money and publicity, and no real business men can say no to those 2.


YachtTech
**

Feb 10, 2006, 8:01 PM

Post #14 of 21 (64868 views)
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Re: [Guest] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

To the point of propulsion, it would be most helpful to deal with facts. On a canting keel boat, the movement of the keel from side to side is generally controlled by a ram (or rams). Ram movement comes from a power source that is either an engine or batteries. In the case of batteries, they are also used to power an assortment of other devices on a yacht, including navigation electronics, refers, lighting, and - under IRC - electric winches. To be clear, powering the cant of a keel is no different under IRC. Further, on many boats engines are also used to do things like run an engine-driven reefer system and charge batteries. Why not make the rule consistent for all boats and disallow an engine to turn on at all during a race - regardless of purpose. That would be fair. Otherwise, it would be most appropriate under IRC to be consistent - and permit canting keels.

Regardless of the facts, the Bermuda Race Organizing Authority is obviously intent on keeping canting keels out of overall contention. Let's not pretend otherwise. They and those who have lobbied so hard don't want anyone spoiling their fun and ability to claim whatever trophy they desire. The result will most likely be that no canting keel boats will participate, and that will very well satisfy the status quo. Well done!

No need for further discussion on the Bermuda Race and canting keel boats. Other venues will be quite happy to have the yachts participate. Watch for those other venues welcoming and promoting those yachts - and all other particpants.


reggie
**

Feb 17, 2006, 6:53 AM

Post #15 of 21 (64742 views)
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Re: [YachtTech] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Re the use of engines to drive systems - well said YachtTech. Those opposed to it need to get thier collective heads out of the sand.

Point one: GPS and Watermakers are NOT safety devices. A weak, very weak assertation. You can DR and carry barrells of water for crying out loud.

Point two: Laptops, routing software, GPS, internet connection etc etc are serious performance enhancers. A boat without a laptop and appropriate weather routing software is at a severe disadvantage over a boat that does. Unfair? Banned or relegated to the 'Demonstration Division'?

Get out of the dark ages and catch up with the rest of the world. Canting keel boats are awesome, they are here to stay, and with support from the wider community will become more mainstream, affordable and easier to use.

The Bermuda Race is the only event that I am aware of globally that has it's fingers in its ears going 'LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU'. I thought this was supposed to be a gloablly appealing, high end race! If you don't want to race against the best machines in the world then go and do the ARC Rally or something.


captamer90
*

Mar 4, 2006, 7:04 AM

Post #16 of 21 (64549 views)
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Re: [reggie] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The question really isn't canting ballast as much as it is how that ballast is moved and what it is composed of. Movable ballast has been addressed before (why do you think there are crew weight limits?). A few years ago a boat in one of the big races used plastic jugs of water to stack on the windward side. Downwind they emptied the jugs and before docking cut up the plastic and deep sixed the evidence. No one suspected a thing until a disgruntled crewman ratted out the boat to the race committee. Most canting keel boats have a provision for manually operating the keel positioning cylinders. All that is required is that race organizers forbid the use of stored energy for boat operations, be it electrical or fossil fuel, and the canters will be on an even keel (pun?) with the rest of us. Forget the watermaker, GPS, Radar, issue it is a red herring. Those that have been around can remember when electronic navigation was banned from most grand prix races but the issue of stored power for the working of the ship has been consistently banned. If the canters are allowed but with human power to move the keel, the systems that are developed will benefit all of sailing, not just the trust fund babies that want to buy their fifteen minutes of fame by spending the most. IMO canting ballast is a fantastic way to go racing in a bigger more powerd up boat without having to get twelve people organised as crew but I don't want the drone of an engine or whine of a motor.


Guest
Deleted

Mar 4, 2006, 7:29 AM

Post #17 of 21 (64544 views)
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Re: [captamer90] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
The question really isn't canting ballast as much as it is how that ballast is moved and what it is composed of. Movable ballast has been addressed before (why do you think there are crew weight limits?). A few years ago a boat in one of the big races used plastic jugs of water to stack on the windward side. Downwind they emptied the jugs and before docking cut up the plastic and deep sixed the evidence. No one suspected a thing until a disgruntled crewman ratted out the boat to the race committee. Most canting keel boats have a provision for manually operating the keel positioning cylinders. All that is required is that race organizers forbid the use of stored energy for boat operations, be it electrical or fossil fuel, and the canters will be on an even keel (pun?) with the rest of us. Forget the watermaker, GPS, Radar, issue it is a red herring. Those that have been around can remember when electronic navigation was banned from most grand prix races but the issue of stored power for the working of the ship has been consistently banned. If the canters are allowed but with human power to move the keel, the systems that are developed will benefit all of sailing, not just the trust fund babies that want to buy their fifteen minutes of fame by spending the most. IMO canting ballast is a fantastic way to go racing in a bigger more powerd up boat without having to get twelve people organised as crew but I don't want the drone of an engine or whine of a motor.


?What? So you compare using stored energy, which is allowed under the rules, with cheating?

Oh boy. Stored energy is not banned. Read the IRC rules.

And no, don't leave it up to the race organisers, if we did there would be a different rule for every race. There is a reason to go global.

Canting keels and using stored energy to move them and winches is they way ahead. It will not go away. For as long as your heads are buried in the sand, the boats will continue to be built, and they will go racing - just elsewhere. Something about shooting and feet? The Bermuda Race will actually turn into the ARC, a nice cruising trip for archaic old timers. At least Bermuda is a nicer destination than St Lucia. Oh, hang on though, the ARC lets you use waterballast, and that requires stored energy.

And give it a rest on the 'trust fund babies'. If you knew anything about the wealthier owners in our sport, you would be making a very quick apology for that ignorant remark. I, as do thousands of others, go racing with these guys, enjoy thier hospitality, and make a living by selling my professional services to them. I applaud, and thank every single one of these guys who spend thier millions on building the biggest, best most technologically advanced yachts in the world - it is called redistribution of wealth. Would you rather see them pouring thier cash into horses or motor cars rather than our sport? Whose funding drives the technical advances that we all benefit from in our sport? You think moulded sails, or carbon masts or high spec composite engineering for lighter faster boats was all researched and developed just for the hell of it? No, it was developed because there were guys out there ready to spend huge bucks to take advantage of emerging technology.


Guest
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Mar 4, 2006, 11:40 AM

Post #18 of 21 (64539 views)
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Re: [Guest] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Well Guest, first, Trickle down economics have been discredited. They don't work in boats either.

As I said, canting can be accomplished with manual power and that is an option for the race organizers. Don't get your panties in a twist about it. talk your rich owner into organizing a race that treats canters the same as everyone else yet lets them use their stored energy, but, don't be surprized if no one comes.

Just because IRC allows something doesn't mean it is right. Power winches have been around longer than you have and in the interest of a level playing field have been banned from racing.

Do some research next time, most those advances were developed for oter applications than marine and only adapted later.


dentaldude2000
**

Mar 7, 2006, 11:18 AM

Post #19 of 21 (64459 views)
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Re: [Guest] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The canting keel advances and all others mentioned in the thread are not illegal or putting anyone at a disadvantage,

, allow them in..... using powered device rules in place and treat their rating appropriately like the water balasted and rotating mast boats. for all who "worry" about these things, perhaps look at wooden classics to race or one design. Or better yet,, worry about the rating formula to level the playing field. Good grief.... I think it's great that there are those out there to push the envelope and run with their ideas and dreams


dentaldude2000
**

Apr 8, 2006, 6:24 AM

Post #20 of 21 (63868 views)
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Re: [dentaldude2000] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Congratulations to Maximus, the R/P, and the volvo's for joining the fleet, although i will be on a "reguar cruiser", I will look forward with exitement to see them on the course. Bravo....


dumbassideaMkII
**

Apr 30, 2006, 5:57 PM

Post #21 of 21 (63114 views)
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Re: [dentaldude2000] Bermuda Race - Canting Keel in Demo Division Only [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Maximus is going to completely destroy that fleet. The next fastest boat upwind is probably the R/P 66 or perhaps the Swan 86 (waterline length has to be worth something). If its offwind (not likely) then the Open Class boats will have a lot of fun out there.


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