Scuttlebutt Website SCUTTLEBUTT
SAILING NEWS
ForumIndex CLASSIFIED ADS Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS
Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE
Log in LOG IN         

Forum Index: .: Dock Talk:
Hitting the finish line mark
Team McLube

 



The Publisher
*****


Sep 21, 2011, 10:45 AM

Post #1 of 19 (40990 views)
Shortcut
Hitting the finish line mark Log-In to Post/Reply

RACERS AND THE RULES QUIZ
A boat finishing hits the finish mark, crosses the finish line, and sails straight to the yacht club. No boat files a protest, but the Race Committee, who saw her hit the mark, scores her DSQ (disqualified). Has a rule been broken? The answer is...


RULE QUIZ ANSWER
Regarding the rule quiz about hitting the finishing line mark, two rules actually had been broken. First, the boat hit a mark of the course, thus breaking Rule 31 - Touching a Mark. She could have exonerated herself by getting clear, doing a one-turn penalty, and finishing again, but she didn't. (Rule 44.2) The Race Committee broke a rule (A5) by scoring her DSQ. A Race Committee never can score a boat DSQ. Only a Protest Committee can do that. The Race Committee could have protested the boat under Rule 60.3(a). Since the Race Committee did not protest and the boat did finish, the race Committee's only option is to score the boat where she finished. -- Courtesy of Southern Bay Racing News You Can Use


The Publisher
*****


Sep 21, 2011, 10:46 AM

Post #2 of 19 (40989 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From John Diggins:
Regarding the rules quiz, the error on the Race Committee's part is in the coding. The correct code for the boat that hit the finish line mark is DNF. See the definition of "finish". The points for DNF and DSQ are the same. Woe be tide the sailor who would seek redress for this; he will only see a change in the letters next to his name on the score sheet.


From Michael Borga, Point Pleasant, NJ:
From the rules question it said, "Since the Race Committee did not protest and the boat did finish, the race Committee's only option is to score the boat where she finished."

This answer given should not, in my humble opinion, be considered correct due to the fact that a basic principle of The Racing Rules of Sailing has been disregarded.

Sportsmanship And The Rules: Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

This rule/principle should take precedence over all others, the boat that finished while hitting the mark should not be rewarded in any way shape or form, whether a protest is lodged or not.


The Publisher
*****


Sep 21, 2011, 10:47 AM

Post #3 of 19 (40988 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
From John Diggins:
Regarding the rules quiz, the error on the Race Committee's part is in the coding. The correct code for the boat that hit the finish line mark is DNF. See the definition of "finish". The points for DNF and DSQ are the same. Woe be tide the sailor who would seek redress for this; he will only see a change in the letters next to his name on the score sheet.


From Michael Borga, Point Pleasant, NJ:
From the rules question it said, "Since the Race Committee did not protest and the boat did finish, the race Committee's only option is to score the boat where she finished."

This answer given should not, in my humble opinion, be considered correct due to the fact that a basic principle of The Racing Rules of Sailing has been disregarded.

Sportsmanship And The Rules: Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.

This rule/principle should take precedence over all others, the boat that finished while hitting the mark should not be rewarded in any way shape or form, whether a protest is lodged or not.



Regarding John Diggins’ comment (the boat should have been scored DNF for hitting the finish pin), the boat did finish according to the definition of finish in the RRS, therefore, the RC must score them in their finishing position (RRS A3). There is no reference to RRS 31 (Touching a Mark) in the definition of finish. Additionally, the scores for DNF and DSQ are not always the same; the score for DNF is often changed by the sailing instructions.

Mark Borga comes closer to the mark (pardon the pun) when he refers to the Basic Principle. A request for redress could be filed by every other boat in that race (RC’s error was not filing a protest), but since a boat cannot be protested by the RC or PC for information arising from a request for redress (RRS 60.2(a) and 60.3(a)), we are still left with the problem of a boat finishing which has clearly broken RRS 2 (Fair Sailing) and the Basic Principle. However, they may be protested by another boat, and the Protest Committee has the latitude to extend the protest filing time. This is not an intractable problem.

Hopefully, by the time the process got to this point, the offending boat will have been convinced to RAF (retire after finishing), especially since a disqualification under RRS 2 is not excludable.

As a race officer, I tend not to protest boats for on-the-water incidents unless they are egregious fouls with a clear disregard of the rules – which this was. If I observed such an incident, and I was confident of my observation (it’s not easy to see a boat touching a mark unless they assault it), I would have a nice chat with the offending skipper on shore immediately after racing if only to notify them verbally of my intention to protest. If they do not RAF, I have no problem filling out a protest form and letting the Protest Committee handle it. Race Officers have a fiduciary duty to the competitors to provide fair racing according to the Racing Rules of Sailing, which may involve filing the occasional protest.

Matt Bounds
US SAILING Regional Race Officer / Judge




The Publisher
*****


Sep 22, 2011, 9:56 AM

Post #4 of 19 (40925 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From: John Diggins
To: editor@sailingscuttlebutt.com
Subject: Matt Bound's response

FINISH:" A boat finishes.....either for the first time OR AFTER TAKING A PENALTY UNDER RULE 44.2 "




Matt Bounds
**

Sep 22, 2011, 7:58 PM

Post #5 of 19 (40889 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
From: John Diggins
To: editor@sailingscuttlebutt.com
Subject: Matt Bound's response

FINISH:" A boat finishes.....either for the first time OR AFTER TAKING A PENALTY UNDER RULE 44.2 "

Just because you shout, doesn't make it right, John. They didn't take a penalty, so the first condition applies.

Take a step back from the racing rules for a second and let common sense take over. The Race Committee has very limited power to hand out letter scores. Unless someone absolutely mauls a mark, it can be difficult to definitively know whether they touched it or not, especially if the boat is between the observer and the mark. Did they touch the mark, or did the bow wave push it away?

In this instance, the RC is assuming someone has broken a rule (31) and by scoring them DNF, the RC is being judge, jury and executioner - which is not the role of the RC. They would be exceeding their authority.

It's the same thing if a boat supposedly hit any other mark of the course and failed to do a one-turn penalty. Would they be scored DNF for that? Of course not. They would have to be protested and the PC would sort it out.





The Publisher
*****


Sep 23, 2011, 7:53 AM

Post #6 of 19 (40876 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Matt Bounds] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From John N Sweeney:
Concerning the rules question this week about hitting a finish mark, and the thread that has ensued, just because there is no specific reference to RRS 31 in the definition of Finish doesn't mean that it doesn't apply.

The rule states that: "a boat shall not touch a finishing mark after 'finishing'" (The RRS has italics on 'finishing', which is referencing the RRS definition of Finish)

Touching a finish mark, after finishing, sets off a chain of events which immediately brings into play this part of the definition of Finish: 'either for the first time or after taking a penalty'. Hence it is possible to have finished a race, but doing so does not turn off rule 31. What it does provide is the opportunity for a proper finish.

Touching the mark also brings into play the definition of Racing (again referenced in RRS31), which reads: 'and clears the finishing line and marks'. Hence if you touch the mark you're still racing and still have a shot at a proper finish.

While it is not so written, there are two logical, yet somewhat contradictory, conclusions: 1) that the RRS allow the RC to take back a finish and 2) that a boat hasn't finished if in the attempt to do so touches a mark. In either case the correct score would be DNF, without a hearing.

As a competitor it's obvious to me that a boat hasn't finished if after crossing the line she touches the pin or signal boat or fouls another boat. Absolutely the Basic Principal comes into play here, but so does Part 3 - Conduct of a Race.

It's unfortunate that the RRS isn't crystal clear on this. Hopefully the 2013 edition will address this and eliminate any room for (mis)interpretation.


The Publisher
*****


Sep 23, 2011, 7:53 AM

Post #7 of 19 (40875 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I suspect if it was permitted in the rules to hit marks, it would open another Pandora's box. But given the comments in this thread, I wonder if it would be a smaller box than the one we have.

- Craig Leweck, Scuttlebutt


Matt Bounds
**

Sep 23, 2011, 8:58 AM

Post #8 of 19 (40869 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

My comments are in red.


In Reply To
From John N Sweeney:
The rule (RRS 31 for clarity) states that: "a boat shall not touch a finishing mark after 'finishing'" (The RRS has italics on 'finishing', which is referencing the RRS definition of Finish)

Touching a finish mark, after finishing, sets off a chain of events which immediately brings into play this part of the definition of Finish: 'either for the first time or after taking a penalty'. Hence it is possible to have finished a race, but doing so does not turn off rule 31. What it does provide is the opportunity for a proper finish. No, what it does provide is for is a boat to take a penalty after finishing (the first time). After taking a penalty, they are allowed to finish a second time. If they do not take a penalty, the first finish still counts.

Touching the mark also brings into play the definition of Racing (again referenced in RRS31), which reads: 'and clears the finishing line and marks'. Hence if you touch the mark you're still racing and still have a shot at a proper finish. Racing as defined by the RRS, is a state of being - When you are racing, the RRS apply. "...clears the finish line and marks" does not preclude touching the marks. It means to get away from them. When you are away from the finish line and marks, you are clear and no longer racing.

While it is not so written ("unwritten" rules are not rules. This is dangerous territory), there are two logical, yet somewhat contradictory, conclusions: 1) that the RRS allow the RC to take back a finish Not really - The RC will record each finisher as they cross the line - even if they cross it twice. What the definition of finish does is allow them to determine which finish (first or second) is the correct one - usually the second one. and 2) that a boat hasn't finished if in the attempt to do so touches a mark. False. In either case the correct score would be DNF, without a hearing. False - see my response above. The RC is determining whether a boat has broken a rule, which is not within their authority to do (with very specific exceptions, and this isn't one of them).

As a competitor it's obvious to me that a boat hasn't finished if after crossing the line she touches the pin or signal boat or fouls another boat. Absolutely the Basic Principal comes into play here, but so does Part 3 - Conduct of a Race. As a competitor, you should protest a boat that does not take a one-turn penalty for touching a mark. The RC must score them in their finishing position regardless.

It's unfortunate that the RRS isn't crystal clear on this. Hopefully the 2013 edition will address this and eliminate any room for (mis)interpretation.


IMHO, the RRS are clear on this. The Race Committee cannot determine on its own whether a boat has broken a rule (with very specific exceptions, and they all have to do with starting, not finishing). Touching a mark breaks Rule 31, therefore the RC is obligated to score a boat that finishes, even if they touch the finishing mark.





Matt Bounds
**

Sep 23, 2011, 9:05 AM

Post #9 of 19 (40868 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
I suspect if it was permitted in the rules to hit marks, it would open another Pandora's box. But given the comments in this thread, I wonder if it would be a smaller box than the one we have.

The windsurfing rules (Appendix B) allow touching marks (B2.5) as do the current America's Cup RRS (there is no rule 31). Nobody has died yet (that I'm aware of)Smile


johnnsweeney
**

Sep 25, 2011, 8:14 PM

Post #10 of 19 (40764 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Matt Bounds] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Mr Bounds,
Regarding your first objection, to me saying that RRS31 provides an opportunity for a proper finish. You counter, 'No' saying that it does provide for a boat to take a penalty. I say 'semantics', a proper 'finish' again, by definition requires first taking any required penalty, whether it be a circle or scoring penalty.
Regarding your second objection, again, semantics. Essentially we are in agreement that you are still racing if you are in a position to hit a finish line mark - whether you have crossed the line or not. But I can not tell if you are saying something beyond this fact.
But the only salient item here, with regard to the debate, regarding your third objection, this is not semantics in the least. I didn't say that my conclusions were 'rules'. You certainly don't have to accept conclusion #1, but you have no basis for disputing #2. I ask you to re-read the def of Finish. The definition is not saying that a boat can Finish more than once. In the def, the words 'either for the first time' are not referencing 'Finish', they are referencing ' crossing the finish line'. Hence, a boat can cross the line as many times as it likes, but has not 'Finished' until it has properly sailed the course, including properly 'finishing' and 100% completing 'Racing'.
So again I conclude, that if a boat has not 'Finished' the RC is within their rights to score DNF without a hearing.


Matt Bounds
**

Sep 25, 2011, 8:37 PM

Post #11 of 19 (40763 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnnsweeney] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

In an attempt to put this to bed, I will quote an excerpt from Dave Perry's Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing:

Quote
If you finish but the race committee thinks it saw you touch a finishing mark and you do not take a penalty, or it thinks you skipped a mark or otherwise sailed the course correctly, it must score you as finished and then protest you under rule 31 (Touching a Mark) or rule 28 (Sailing the Course) in accordance with rule 61 (Protest Requirements) (see ISAF Case 80).

Semantics aside, I think Dave's experience trumps my meager achievements.


johnnsweeney
**

Sep 25, 2011, 8:58 PM

Post #12 of 19 (40758 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Matt Bounds] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

And, what if, as the basic premise began, the RC is certain, as opposed to thinks, that a boat hit a mark?
Would that make a difference?
I wouldn't dispute that in practice the best course of action is for the RC to protest a boat in either case. However, if we are debating (always in a friendly and respectful manner) what is permissible under the rules (as pertains to this quiz), it is permissible, based on the way the rules are currently written, for the RC to score a boat DNF if they fail to finish a race.
I do want to thank you for the lively exchange, I am working my way thru the PRO certification process and I enjoy the exercise.


Matt Bounds
**

Sep 25, 2011, 9:28 PM

Post #13 of 19 (40757 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnnsweeney] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The difference depends on the competitor's sophistication. The likelihood is that you're still going to spend time in a hearing.

Scenario: You (the RC) are convinced you saw the boat hit a mark. You score the boat DNF. The competitor is equally convinced they did not hit the mark. Result - redress hearing - and they can't be DSQ'd for evidence presented in a redress hearing. So even if they did hit the mark, they can't be DSQ'd (at least in that hearing). It's just a mess.

If the competitor admits they hit the mark, they're likely to do nothing and take the DNF. Which is sort of OK (Basic Principle and rule 2 issues aside) - as long as the SIs don't change the score for DNF and make it less of a penalty than DSQ. If that's the case, then it's not OK to let them get a DNF. They broke a rule, and the penalty for breaking a rule is DSQ.

In practicality, my instructions to my RC team are this: if you believe you see a boat hit a mark, make a note of the time and their sail number. Watch them to see if they do a circle (tack and jibe) and note that as well. If they don't do a circle, I want to know about it. The boat is still recorded in their place when they break the plane of the finish line.

If they don't do a circle, I'll approach them on shore and ask them if they thought they might have hit a mark and essentially give them the opportunity to RAF before I file protest paperwork on them.

Bottom line: You'll get away with scoring boats DNF for touching marks at low-level events, but it's a bad habit to learn. If you do it at a higher level event, the competitors will have you for lunch.

The only time the RC can score a boat DNF is if they never break the plane of the finish line from the direction of the last mark.


johnnsweeney
**

Sep 25, 2011, 10:43 PM

Post #14 of 19 (40756 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Matt Bounds] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Mr Bounds,
We are, I think, going to agree to disagree, I don't expect to change your opinion. Still, I say, if this scenario went to redress, where is the new evidence? If a boat has been scored DNF, once in redress a boat would be obligated to provide evidence to support their claim they didn't hit the mark in order to overturn the initial call. Remember, we are working from the assumption that RC is certain the boat hit the mark, and that the RC is above repute, just as with an OCS. But, lets say they have 3rd party testify no contact. At best its a crap shoot whether a given jury sides with RC or the boat.
Another point, to your last comment, in match racing, the RC can most definitely score dnf to a competitor who has broken the plane - if for instance they carry a penalty over the line, and also if they fail to return to the course side following their exoneration. And I know of nothing in the RRS that says the RC can't act similarly in fleet racing.
I say this because I am convinced that while a boat's time (for purpose of handicap racing only) or place (for most other racing formats) is based on crossing the plane, but she hasn't 'Finished' until she has finished 'Racing'. And if a boat doesn't Finish, logically her score shall be DNF.
I want to mention that I sent a follow up to the editor before my Forum posting, it may appear in Tues edition, if Craig is so inclined, please know that I submitted it after our recent exchanges.


Matt Bounds
**

Sep 26, 2011, 4:22 AM

Post #15 of 19 (40743 views)
Shortcut
Re: [johnnsweeney] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

See my comments in red below.

Quote
Still, I say, if this scenario went to redress, where is the new evidence? If a boat has been scored DNF, once in redress a boat would be obligated to provide evidence to support their claim they didn't hit the mark in order to overturn the initial call. Remember, we are working from the assumption that RC is certain the boat hit the mark, and that the RC is above repute, just as with an OCS. But, lets say they have 3rd party testify no contact. At best its a crap shoot whether a given jury sides with RC or the boat.

I think you misunderstand the intent of the request for redress. It would have little to do with the "fact" that the boat touched a mark and everything to do with the fact that the RC made a mistake in scoring the boat DNF. If the PC knows their business, then they will agree that the RC made a mistake and order the boat be reinstated in their finishing position. Because neither the RC or the PC can initiate a protest based on information in a redress request (rules 61.2(a) and 62.1(a)), they cannot now protest the boat for hitting the mark. You see what a mess this becomes?


Quote
Another point, to your last comment, in match racing, the RC can most definitely score dnf to a competitor who has broken the plane - if for instance they carry a penalty over the line, and also if they fail to return to the course side following their exoneration.

Match racing is a different animal, with essentially a binary result - 1 for winning, 0 for losing. The DNF is based on an umpire call and not really the judgement of the RC.


Quote
I say this because I am convinced that while a boat's time (for purpose of handicap racing only) or place (for most other racing formats) is based on crossing the plane, but she hasn't 'Finished' until she has finished 'Racing'. And if a boat doesn't Finish, logically her score shall be DNF.

Please read ISAF Case 80 and Shannon Bush's (a US SAILING regional race officer) response in today's SB.You may agree to disagree, but if you're the RO at a higher level event and you score a boat DNF for hitting a mark (any mark), you are very likely to have a rude awakening.


The Publisher
*****


Sep 26, 2011, 6:45 AM

Post #16 of 19 (40730 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Matt Bounds] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From George Morris:
Regarding the finish line rules quiz, there is no actual requirement, as far as I know, for the Race Committee to give a toot when a boat crosses the finishing line but we do this because it's fun. The fact that a toot has been given does not necessarily mean the boat has finished correctly, including the bit about clearing all marks.

The RO does not have to record a finishing time just because he has given a toot. If he observes a boat crossing the finishing line he notes the finishing time but if the boat subsequently hits the mark he rubs it out again, doesn't he? Inevitably the boat would claim that he heard a toot and that meant he was no longer racing but the boat would be wrong. The toot will always be given before the boat clears the mark and can surely be revoked if the marks are not subsequently cleared. The score in this case is DNF.


From Shannon Bush:
Adding to the comments about hitting a finishing line mark, if a competitor finishes (by definition: pierce the finish line with all sails, etc in place) and then hits the finish mark, he has broken a rule and needs to exonerate himself. If the competitor is savvy, he would immediately bear off, gybe around the finish mark, then tack back around the finish mark and re-finish. He will have exonerated himself by completing the "one-turn penalty." IF NOT, then the competitor is am at the whim of the RC whether or not he will be protested. A competitor can take the one-turn penalty anywhere as long as he returns to the course side of the finish line and RE-FINISHES.

If the RC sees a boat properly finish, then hit the finish mark, the RC finishes the boat IN PLACE and notes that the boat hit the finish mark, and does NOT score her DNF. IF the RC intends to protest the boat hitting the finish mark, the RC shall inform the boat ashore, within the time limit, its intention to protest. IF the RC sees the boat exonerate herself, the RC shall score the boat in the position she crosses the line for the second time, making notes all the while.



The Publisher
*****


Sep 26, 2011, 9:12 AM

Post #17 of 19 (40722 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From Hal Smith, NRO:
The situation of a competitor hitting a finish mark when finishing but not performing an exonerating one-turn penalty and re-finishing is a long time question on the US Sailing race management exam. The official answer is: “score her in her finishing place, and consider protesting her for contacting the mark.” You can have a different view and argue all you wish with the judge, but you will lose the debate. She did finish per the definition, so DNF is inappropriate. No other rule was “turned on” afterwards that allows the RC to take a scoring action without a hearing. The RC must protest the boat and have a hearing to score the boat DSQ. It is that simple.


The Publisher
*****


Sep 26, 2011, 9:27 AM

Post #18 of 19 (40718 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Since the boat met the definition Finish, the RC is required to score the boat in her place. The RC then has the option to protest the boat and, based on the hearing, the Protest committee can change the score to DSQ or DNE. DNE would be a possible option if the boat acknowledges that she knowingly hit the mark and broke rule 31. If the RC scores the boat DNF and the boat requests redress, the only option the Protest Committee has is to reinstate her place as per RRS 61.2(b). The redress is about the incorrect score by the RC, not the hitting of the mark. ISAF Case 80 explains this in detail.

- Peter van Muyden




Bruce Thompson
***

Sep 27, 2011, 9:14 AM

Post #19 of 19 (40612 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] Hitting the finish line mark [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

For all those who have been confused by the misinformation above I would recommend reading 44.2

"When a boat takes the penalty at or near the finishing line, she shall sail completely to the course side of
the line before
finishing."

So a boat cannot merely bear off and exonerate herself by completing one penalty circle by crossing the finish line a second time, the initial portion of said circle not being "on the course side of the line".

The other relevant rule is in Appendix A, which provides that the race committee can score a yacht DNF without a hearing, just as it can score a yacht OCS without a hearing. So yes indeed the RC can be judge, jury and executioner unless the miscreant should file a request for redress to stay the execution, at which time the jury is obligated to follow the rules, specifically the definition of finishing and determine that under the stated set of facts, the boat did not finish as defined and therefore she shall be scored DNF and shall not be entitled to redress because the fault was definitely her own and does not meet the "no fault of her own" standard necessary to have standing to request redress.

The judiciary needs to introduce itself to the concept of judicial restraint and the definition of shall and should butt out until called upon by a party to a dispute. They are not the legislature nor the executive branches, they are merely the judiciary. And if the Appeals Committee has blundered again in its interpretation of the law, then presumably the ISAF Rules Committee will re-write the RRS so as to simplify them enough so that even an NRO or IJ can understand them.


I do admit that I am not an NRO or IJ, but I did have the singluar experience of having a Past President of the International Lightning Class Association and current Pan American Games medallist remark that the job done by my race committee this past weekend was "a miracle". He may be right in that we had international dinghy racing in Chicago, adult women flying spinnakers and even a mixed Grabowski/Cheesehead crew winning the regatta on the traditional Bears/Packers weekend! And we have the pictures to prove it.

https://picasaweb.google.com/...9_tSQ&feat=email#


Viewing the Forums: No members and guests
 


Search for (options) Contact Forum Forum FAQS Markup Tags Forum Rules