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Sportboat Research
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JP
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Nov 22, 2005, 6:17 AM

Post #1 of 40 (150566 views)
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Define sportboat.
What sportboats have come to market in North America during the last 15 or so years?
Which ones have active classes?


dogwatch
**

Nov 23, 2005, 5:27 AM

Post #2 of 40 (150532 views)
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This looks remarkably like a student wanting someone else to write their homework for them. Do your own.


HNRT
***


Nov 23, 2005, 6:16 AM

Post #3 of 40 (150521 views)
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I am going to ignore the barking dog above, and walk into this thread. I am intrigued about the question regarding the sportboat definitiion. Is there one? Did it all start with the Melges 24? To me a sportboat is:
  • keelboat
  • jib boat
  • sprit/assymetical boat
  • open cockpit
  • minimal interior
  • high performance

The sportboat seems like a crossover between dinghy and keelboat - or a keelboat that is trying as hard as possible to be a dinghy. Does that limit the size? Hard to see any 40-foot sportboats, but there are definitely a few 30 footers.


JP
***

Nov 23, 2005, 3:17 PM

Post #4 of 40 (150499 views)
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Thanks. I've been curious about what a sportboat really is and where it takes over from dinghy or skiff Additionally, how the community defines such. Ya think maybe some non-dimensional numbers could help define the classes? How about that canting ballast schock 38/40. for the upper limits. It could have started with the Shark? I'll do some research on that and let you know.


Bird Man
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Nov 23, 2005, 6:04 PM

Post #5 of 40 (150494 views)
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Well, i agree with the description of a sport boat, but why put a size limit on what a sport boat is, I remember seeing pictures of an old volvo 60 that was modified to go really fast for the sydney hobart race, i think the boat was called AAPT. AAPT was sailed with very few crew, and to go really fast. Why arent the new volvo 70's sport boats, some of them have bow sprits/asymes/jibs and are sailed with very few people. I realize that these are not production boats, but they are built to go very fast with a minimal ammount of crew, which i think is the defineation of a sport boat.


JP
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Nov 23, 2005, 7:59 PM

Post #6 of 40 (150487 views)
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Cool: Now we all can debate and then come to some agreement of the description of a Sportboat. Sportboat, apparently has been a subjective description of some radical design, yes? Maybe we can get some help from the Forum Admin. to help the sailing community draft an acceptable definition.

As an example, Ski Industries America (SIA) now Snowsports Industries America saw a need to change the terminology of Novice, Intermediate, Expert to Type I, II, III skier. Though it may sound PC, but it helped a lot of of skiers really identify the type of skier they were and furthermore helped propagate the future of the sport by helping them indentify the type of skier they were and hence the equipment they needed. In turn it bolstered the reputation of the suppliers and took the wind out of the sails of the opinionated salespeople.

So to get ahead of myself and let you know where I'm coming from, if we want to promote the sport of sailing, do you think a rating of boats is appropriate. Let's say Sailboat I, II or III and determine what boat rates in each category rather than a description of cruiser, racer, cruiser/racer, sport boat. S-I being something like ; enjoys sailing but likes to motor when wind exceeds 15 Kts, doesn't care if taking through 145 degrees, prefers a slip, likes to motor sail, concerned about amenities and likes to relax and doesn't care who gets to the mooring field first. I understand this may sound outside the box, but I'm trying to understand where this industry is headed and what the future of sailing is. Responsible comments more than welcome.


JP
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Nov 23, 2005, 8:04 PM

Post #7 of 40 (150484 views)
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Sorry, third paragraph, fourth line should be " tacking through 145 degrees". Board of directors meeting tonite.


Muffin the Mule
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Nov 24, 2005, 12:40 AM

Post #8 of 40 (150473 views)
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In Reply To
Did it all start with the Melges 24?

No it didn't start with a fucking Melges 24, can't americans get it out of their heads that the world doesn't spin round a Melges 24? There are a lot of older sportsboats out there and defining what one is is like justifying Tony Blair, it'll never happen.


John Tormey
****


Nov 24, 2005, 7:18 AM

Post #9 of 40 (150464 views)
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Okay muffman, sounds like you want to offer americans some perspective on sportboats from elsewhere. Maybe it is hard to define a sportboat, but you seem to have an idea. So bring it, and enlighten us on what types of boats that we are missing out on, and those that perhaps were at the front of the line of the sportboat revolution.


jim marta
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Nov 24, 2005, 11:31 AM

Post #10 of 40 (150453 views)
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An unnecessarily rude way oif sounding off. Is there a problem with using the language as a gentleman would. Your tongue is offensive.





PaulK
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Nov 24, 2005, 8:15 PM

Post #11 of 40 (150431 views)
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What about the International Tempest? Their website: http://www.politicalfinance.com/ shows World Championships being held since 1967. Their description:

The International Tempest is a 22-foot, two-man, high-performance keelboat equipped with spinnaker and trapeze. It weighs little more than 1000 lbs.; its fiberglass hull weighs less than 500 lbs., its fin keel weighs about the same, and its 30-ft. aluminum mast adds about 30 lbs. On its trailer, its towing weight is normally less than 2000 lbs.

The Tempest’s main and jib total 247 sq.ft., and its spinnaker adds 225 sq.ft. more. Its powerful, high aspect ratio rig and efficient hull enable it to sail upwind at almost seven knots and tack through less than 90 degrees. It’s best known for its offwind speed, however—it can plane in as little as 13 knots of wind and surf in much less—and its heavy air performance once led an editor of Yachting to call it "the fastest one-design keelboat, period!"

Might give a Melges 24 a run for their money?


JP
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Nov 25, 2005, 5:32 AM

Post #12 of 40 (150419 views)
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I remember the Tempest from years ago, O'day was a builder in the 60's. Sounds like the Tempest could be a benchmark for modern sportboat design. Thanks, great link.


JP
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Nov 25, 2005, 6:59 AM

Post #13 of 40 (150412 views)
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Do not resort to shouting, name calling, belligerence and using logical fallacies to argue your point. We could debate all day about what boat it didn't start with and not get to a goal of finding out where it did start. The Melges comment was posed as an open ended question and is relevant as it is a starting point to perhaps define the modern day sportboat. Leave comments about all disinterested parties out of this discussion.


dogwatch
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Nov 27, 2005, 4:53 AM

Post #14 of 40 (150371 views)
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In Reply To
Do not resort to shouting, name calling, belligerence and using logical fallacies to argue your point. discussion.



Haven't quite grasped how these internet discussions work yet, have we? He has a valid point; it seems fairly certain the Australians invented the sportsboat concept and term, long before Melges got in on the act. I know that and I'm not even Australian.

I will help you with your homework. Check out how some other bureaucratic adminstrators have successfully made it difficult and costly for new manufacturers to enter the boat-building industry.

http://www.ceproof.com/...ft_directive_RCD.htm
http://www.dti.gov.uk/strd/recreat.html

The RCD includes the kind of classification you are talking about, although it does not categorise "sportsboats".

I don't think you will find many EU sailors hugely grateful for all this work that has gone into our "protection".


Atilla The Hun
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Nov 27, 2005, 10:35 AM

Post #15 of 40 (150354 views)
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for me a sports boat filles loosely conforms to the following

  • has a keel so that excludes 18ft skiffs etc.
  • high performance ie. planing should be able to plan in under 15knots ish
  • open cockpit
  • doesnt nessicarily have to be an asymetric but i've yet to see a modern symetric build
  • a day boat only you would be mad to do a distance race on one (overnight)
some examples of sports boats:
  • sb3
  • melges24
  • 1720
  • mumm30 (not sure about this one)
  • ultra 30
  • hunter 707
please feel free to add to the list as i'am sure i've omitted plenty of classes.


Bird Man
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Nov 27, 2005, 7:31 PM

Post #16 of 40 (150330 views)
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i thought of 3 class that might be added:

beneatau 25.? (farr's melges 24, preatty much the same boat but with out a bow sprit)
Melges 30 (are there any left, i though i saw one in annapolis over the summer but im not sure)
Melges 32

I can agree with the boats having keels, but why remove boats that "you would be mad to do a distance race on. Atilla The Hun, there pleanty of "big" boats that can plane in under 15ktsish, and if there is not one currently, im sure that in the near future there will be one.



Atilla The Hun
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Nov 28, 2005, 3:52 AM

Post #17 of 40 (150319 views)
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its just that i belive that the ethos of a great sport boat goes againt that of having the ablity to part take in RORC type competions. thus in a sports boat "you would be mad to do a distance race on".
are my alone in my thinking?



JP
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Nov 28, 2005, 5:15 PM

Post #18 of 40 (150295 views)
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ATH;

Your description of a sportboat is backed up with reason, be it objective or subjective. Thanks for presenting an argument which commands a little thought.

To date, characteristics that might describe a sportboat are;

Objective description; Keel boat, jib, planing hull.

Subjective description; Day/Camp boat, minimal interior, no cockpit combing,

Anybody have any thoughts about non-dimensional numbers? SA/D, Disp/L?


jim marta
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Nov 28, 2005, 5:25 PM

Post #19 of 40 (150292 views)
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Perhaps a definition of a "sport boat" might include boats that can't be rated for all around conditions under any rule, and thus, can have a "fair" advantage in many unique conditions. Typically, they are very light, have a lot of sail area, often use live ballast (crew), are very technical in nature (swing keels, water ballast, etc.), and are capable of extreme speeds off the wind. Plus, they are fun to sail!


JP
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Nov 28, 2005, 5:26 PM

Post #20 of 40 (150292 views)
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Bird Man;

You could be on to something with the big boats. Some former BOC and Whitbread boats could be included. IACC boats could be classified SB's. Should multi's be excluded in your opinion?


JP
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Nov 28, 2005, 5:36 PM

Post #21 of 40 (150289 views)
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Can't really argue with anything you've mentioned. Sounds like a definition that could be found in a CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.


Bird Man
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Nov 28, 2005, 6:23 PM

Post #22 of 40 (150283 views)
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I grew up on big boats, 24 to 44 feet if that is considered big, so they have a special place in my heart, and I just want to make sure that we dont exclude any boats of any size because many people feel that in order for a boat to be "sporty" it has to be small. I think that one of the things that we have agreeded a sport boat has to have is a keel and there for is a multi had a keel, why not include it into the category of sport boats if they fit the criteria that we have determined a boat must comply with to be a sportboat. On the addition of Whitbread, BOC and IACC boats, I think it depends on how they preform in all conditions and if they fit the criteria that is determined a boat must comply with to be a sport boat. I personall dont have enough knoledge aobut Whitbread, BOC and IACC boats to say yes or no, but from what I have seen Im undecided on BOC, from lack of knowledge. From the video of IACC boats, I personally dont think they fit the criteria of a sport boat, but if anyone asmore experience with them than me and thinks they should be included, awsome. On Whitbread/Volvo boats, the 60 and 70 foot rules, I think certain boats can be included, depending on there design. For exapmle, IMO both of the ABN AMRO boats should be included, but the other 5 volvo 70's still have yet to show me that they are up to the preformance standards of what a sport boat should have.


dogwatch
**

Nov 30, 2005, 2:41 AM

Post #23 of 40 (150235 views)
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In Reply To
IACC boats could be classified SB's.



Only if you haven't even the faintest idea what the word "sportsboat" means to the people who actually sail them.

You are either completely misinformed or an ingenious troll.


WillieT
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Nov 30, 2005, 5:34 AM

Post #24 of 40 (150230 views)
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How did AC boats get into this thread? Bad news is that defining sportboat is like defining "cool." Sportboat is a slang term that likely is getting spread too thin. One person's 'cool' is another person's 'lame,' but best to be discussed over Mount Gay.


------------------

Dreaming of the BVI...


JP
***

Nov 30, 2005, 6:29 AM

Post #25 of 40 (150226 views)
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So according to your logic, to know what a vegtable is, I have to actually consume a "vegtable".


JP
***

Nov 30, 2005, 6:44 AM

Post #26 of 40 (150225 views)
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"Cool" or "lame" are emotional responses illicited from positive or negative stimulus. Sportboat is a physical object.


dogwatch
**

Nov 30, 2005, 7:30 AM

Post #27 of 40 (150225 views)
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In Reply To
Bad news is that defining sportboat is like defining "cool."

Well, not entirely. Some people have a very clear idea what is means. There is, for example, the definition ORC uses for its Sportsboat Championships http://www.orc.org/index.php?id=137. It specifies size and weight limits (< 9m and <2000kg) and limits in terms of D/L, amongst other things. RORC runs the SBR system, which quite a few countries use. This similar specifies a max length (10m), and indicates SA/D and D/R ratios outside which no credit is given. http://www.rorcrating.com/SBR/2005/SBR2005.pdf The Australians, who arguably invented the term and the genre, find both a bit too inclusive. They think that sportsboats should be "trailerable", by which they mean, amongst other things, that a lifting keel is mandatory. They also think the ratios used by ORC and RORC are insufficiently performance-orientated. Now, anyone else want to argue that IACCs are "sportsboats", when they are about as close to the opposite as it is possible to imagine? Anyone else here actually know anything about sailing?


dogwatch
**

Nov 30, 2005, 7:36 AM

Post #28 of 40 (150224 views)
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In Reply To
So according to your logic, to know what a vegtable is, I have to actually consume a "vegtable".



No but "according to my logic", if you are asking for a recipe for quiche, you ought to first know what an egg looks like. Otherwise we are all wasting our time.

Anyway, you are a troll. In fact, you are a troll who cannot spell "vegetable".


JP
***

Nov 30, 2005, 9:02 AM

Post #29 of 40 (150215 views)
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True, I didn't spell vegetable correctly. Your only worthwhile input in the discussion. Additionally, I didn't ask how to build a sportboat, so I don't need to know the differences between different building materials. You made your point though, I now accept you are unable to define sportboat or describe one without diverting attention from the subject by resorting to insult.


Bird Man
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Dec 4, 2005, 7:54 PM

Post #30 of 40 (150140 views)
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HEY, no more insults or this tread will start to represent what another websites fourms look like

Back to the question: What is a sport boat? How about this for a start:

Fixed Keel
100% jib
Open Transom
Minimal Crew (putting a number crew would limit size of boats and that is something i personally want to avoid)


How are these guide lines for a start. Anything else anyone can think of.


Guest
Deleted

Jan 1, 2006, 9:25 PM

Post #31 of 40 (149965 views)
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SA/d at the very least better than 30 D/l ratio definitely less than 100.
IMHO - boats like J80, Cork 1720, Bendy25 are close but no cigar.......
Agree on:

Trailerable (i.e. lifting keel)
No (or very limited) interior
One would be crazy to think of SB's for a weekend trip - i.e. strictly a day-racer


mainsheeter
**


Feb 3, 2006, 5:26 PM

Post #32 of 40 (149782 views)
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I would think a retractable sprit to be a requirement...


Surfer
***


Feb 4, 2006, 9:01 PM

Post #33 of 40 (149767 views)
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I have no idea.

That said, I do know a sportboat
when I see a 'real' one.

-Surfer


outsider
**

Feb 21, 2006, 12:47 AM

Post #34 of 40 (149636 views)
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There is little point including boats that cannot be trailered easily in the sportsboat definition. This would exclude anything over 40ft.

The Melges 24 is the commonly held starting point for this genre. There have been many light displacement, performance boats (planing keelboats) around prior to this but the whole Melges package was better.

There are many others subsequently whose perfomance is so lacking that you wonder why they even call themselves sportsboats.

Performance is definitely an element to include in the definition and would be a keelboat that can get up and go downwind in moderate breeze.

Tomorrows sportsboat would be the OUT95 www.out95.com

Lighter, faster, easily towed......


Mummy
****

Feb 21, 2006, 1:36 PM

Post #35 of 40 (149615 views)
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Exactly how many times, in how many threads, are you going to pimp that monstrosity you call an Out95?


SailTrim
*****

Feb 21, 2006, 3:02 PM

Post #36 of 40 (149612 views)
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I have to agree with outsider ~ the Out95 is very cool, but in regards to sport boats, designs like the Melges 24 cover all the basis and as a resul: a huge class following, excellent event participation and challenging learning curve to keep pros and ams constantly challenged.


mainsheeter
**


Feb 22, 2006, 5:07 PM

Post #37 of 40 (149590 views)
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So, I'm wondering how the Quest 30, Mount Gay 30, A30, Hendo30, etc.. compare with each other on a shorthanded (2-crew) 400-800 mi offshore race with equal portions of windward, reaching, and 140 degree running. The crew should have relative comfort below while off-watch, such as a shower, hot food, relatively dry bunks, etc... Should have inboard diesel and regular Cat 1 stuff. It would be kind of nice to take the small family on a weekend trip when not competing... Log on...


outsider
**

Feb 23, 2006, 12:45 AM

Post #38 of 40 (149580 views)
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Whilst any backyard shop could probably pimp your ride. Not many can pimp mine mummy's boy.


outsider
**

Feb 23, 2006, 12:57 AM

Post #39 of 40 (149579 views)
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Comforts are a tricky one for sportsboats. How many coffee machines do you find in a sports bike, sports car and so on.

While its nice to be able to take the family for a day sail, I believe that in a sportsboat they have to rough it a bit so that the sailing is a bit more fun, afterall the boat was designed to race (for sport).

Too much junk just weighs the boat down and the design loadcases are just too different. Thats why many of the 30's you've listed aren't really sports boats. They don't conform on displacement grounds and are small offshore boats. Nothing wrong with that, you get some fantastic sailing but its not day racing, short course.......... sports boat style.


Mummy
****

Feb 23, 2006, 11:38 AM

Post #40 of 40 (149565 views)
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On a predominately downwind course the Quest would do great and routinely wins the B1-2. It has great form stability and is fast. But when you add in the upwind parts the A30 will probably be a better all around boat. The MG30 is just too heavy. The H30 is a great boat but ideally needs lots of meat on the rail and of course has almost no interior and no inboard and you have to deal with runners. Another great option if you don't need the interior is a J90. Fast on all points of sail and with a ballast ratio on the way high side of 60% it is an ideal shorthanded boat. Trevor B. has won just about every race possible in S.F. while singlehanding his, and Ryan Finn singlehanded his to Hawaii last year. Just don't expect to spend much comfort time below deck other than while laying in a bunk. That really is the trade-off. You can have comfort or you can have speed, they rarely go hand in hand. This is why the A30 looks great, if it is as fast as Doug claims it will finally offer that elusive mix of speed and interior comfort.


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