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Why the FT 10 Will Fail
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JP
***

Nov 21, 2005, 5:57 PM

Post #1 of 44 (143161 views)
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Too much input. Sorry FT-10 people, I've been through this living on the People's Republic of Martha's Vineyard dealing with a new ferry design. You have taken the designer's concept and destroyed it. You and you alone have have destroyed the FT-10.


Buffalo Hunter
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Nov 21, 2005, 6:17 PM

Post #2 of 44 (143141 views)
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Re: [JP] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Whilst I'm not in a position to order a FT10,can you elaborate why you think a boat with nearly 70 preorders is a failure?

Mind you ordering and waiting several years for one is another matter.


JP
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Nov 21, 2005, 6:54 PM

Post #3 of 44 (143134 views)
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Re: [Buffalo Hunter] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Read the thread, "input from laypeople". The boat will never be delivered for le$$ than an existing thriving j boat class (j-24), T-10 class or even a (gulp) Cork 1720. Seventy boats worldwide, that's a joke. The FT-10ers can't agree on a OD rig or rule. Additionally, when I can buy a new J-24 for less money, sail in a highly competitive class anywhere in the world, why would I buy a FT-10?


Roy
**

Nov 21, 2005, 8:17 PM

Post #4 of 44 (143122 views)
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I've been watching the development of the F-10. It looks pretty good except the cabin trunk looks to be about 30" tall. Why do that? Nobody is going to expect to stand up in that boat. Also the sales price of around $45k with sails...get real. If it really sells for that price, I'd check the warranty very carefully because its going to be pretty tough to build a boat with a high tech keel and carbon rig and decent materials for that kind of dough. Oh, forgot, it's built in China where the cost of labor is next to zero.


JP
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Nov 22, 2005, 5:16 AM

Post #5 of 44 (143102 views)
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After a good nights sleep and thinking about it, the Subject should be "Will the FT-10 Succeed".

My statement about failure stems from the original concept being taken way off course. The FT-10 was supposed to be a budget racer. Can anybody give an actual delivered sailaway price? I'm sure the construction of the boat is fine. Just for the heck of it, how many sportboats have been advertised, hit or have been in the marketplace in North America in the last five years? Ten years? Fifteen years? How many are around as a class?


thor
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Nov 22, 2005, 9:10 AM

Post #6 of 44 (143074 views)
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got your balls kicked from the guys at SA ?
what nonsense that is... layman and too much imput and so forth.

over 70 boats sold before the first one hits the water aint so bad in my books....the price will go up to maybe 50 ... I would assume next year. But than 70 boats are already on the water racing ..... than and only than could somebody speculate about a failure.....
Sailaway price is 40 grand plus maybe 5 grand for transport at the moment. thats HALF a MUMM or Melges ....

comparing it to a 30 year design of the J 24 ....... what can I say


thor


texana
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Nov 22, 2005, 10:37 AM

Post #7 of 44 (143063 views)
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The FT10 is the product of a great designer and skilled builder who have pushed out the envelope of researching market feedback.

The boat has not been designed by a government committee or even a much dreaded General Motors design team. There are one or two people very firmly at the helm of the project, and they have great ears.

Not only that, but the off-shore production allows a price point that may help this boat to become a breakout sportboat design.

All indications so far indicate they're the smartest boat designers since the Johnstones.

My greatest concern for the FT10 is that we have not yet seen any leadership firmly at the helm of their marketing and fleet development.


JP
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Nov 22, 2005, 11:19 AM

Post #8 of 44 (143052 views)
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No, SA is just another media outlet with a forum.

Way too much input.

Seventy deposits.

Already nearing 45K, wasn't it initially considerably less?

I didn't compare the designs, I mentioned a well run class association.

I have complete faith in the boat, designer and builder. However, I don't share those sentiments with a potential class association. I bet if you put all the FT-10 depositors on a bus and it came to a stop sign, these guy's would still argue about what action the bus driver should take.


texana
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Nov 22, 2005, 1:10 PM

Post #9 of 44 (143035 views)
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Well, they are sailors. What did you expect?

I'm sure the truely invested parties are all very grateful for your sincere and balanced concern.


Mummy
****

Nov 22, 2005, 1:14 PM

Post #10 of 44 (143032 views)
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That you don't understand the economics of boat building is understandable. That you don't understand how experienced, educated sailors could help design a good boat probably puts you outside that group of people. That you choose to denigrate a product and experience that you failed to take part in is your loss. That you don't understand debate and give and take certainly is made apparent in your crappy posts. That you bothered to post this at all probably just means that you work for someone who feels threatened by the impending success of the Anarchy 10. All in all, you come off looking very small.


lat21
**

Nov 22, 2005, 2:36 PM

Post #11 of 44 (143018 views)
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Re: [Mummy] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I may not agree with everything JP said, but I'm not sure how you draw all of those conclusions about him. He pointed out that a better name for the thread might be "Will the FT10 succeed?" and I think that is a good question. Clearly it has a good start but questions remain. And if you think it's a slam dunk to be successful, go back to SA and drink some more koolaid. I think it is ironic that SA got started touting how the traditional sailboat media were in bed with the vendors and were reluctant to criticize their products and now they are married to this project.

I agree with JP that design by committee sucks and almost always results in an inferior product. Design with tons of input but with a really strong designer leading the effort and who knows how to say no (often) is a good thing. I suspect that the experience of Robert Perry will pay off here and the design will be a winner.

Bigger question is how well the manufacturing is done in China. My last boat was a cruising boat built in China; an Outbound 44 built just outside Shanghai. I bought hull number 5 and the American coordinating the building was still living over there half time, watching and correcting them every step of the way. I went over and visited the factory and was impressed with their skills but it was pretty common for Outbound to demand they rework substantial areas due to problems. I did have one problem after delivery that was manufacturing related but it was fixed by the vendor. The owner of the Chinese boatbuilding company had a long history of building boats, having started the company in Taiwan and moved to China after, get this, Taiwan labor costs became too high! On hull #3, they had a little spare time so they launched the boat in China and took the 40 or so employees out sailing. The vast majority had never been on a sailboat before. They can do good work but require lots of handholding for quite some time. And this was for a pretty standard tech cruising boat. So I think those on the FT10 bandwagon would be wise to question the manufacturing quality and watch it closely.

If the quality is there and considering the number of preorders and price, I think it has a good chance of success. It looks like a fun boat at a great price.


JP
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Nov 22, 2005, 2:55 PM

Post #12 of 44 (143014 views)
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Re: [Mummy] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I am not denigrating the product. I have no faith in the people engaged in buying the product to pull off a forming a national class association or even getting enough boats in one area, other than CA, WA and TX to race OD. I suppose you could engage me in discourse and get me to change my mind about the future of the FT-10 Class which, you haven't done.

Additionally, I do not work for a competing interest. However, I have done my job creating controversy and exposing those who resort to shouting and using logical fallacies to bolster their argument.


texana
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Nov 22, 2005, 3:01 PM

Post #13 of 44 (143012 views)
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I can't think of a new boat design that has the of advantages the FT10 has going for it.
  1. A ground swell of support from a geographically diverse and vocal group of people heavily involved in the sport. Most builders would kill for that alone when starting a new brand.
  2. The cost factor is big. Huge. If they can deliver reasonable quality and keep future hull number prices in the ball park, the market will simply collapse for competitors. If I was a competitor, I'd be nervous. Perhaps JP is one of them.
  3. The design seems simply fantastic. It's fast, low maintanence, decent looking, not too expensive to own once you buy it, and it should be easy to sail. Great for racing the cans and middle distance races, able to do a weekend overnighter if you want.
  4. Too many other builders making similar boats forget that most people buy the biggest boat they can afford. Or they think that just because it's fast, it's got to have all the carbon cool stuff to get the last 1/10th of a knot.

Here's a boat that's large enough to be comfortable, cool, affordable to buy and own, reasonably versatile, and fast as hell. So what if a Melges 32 is 6 seconds per mile faster, snooze. I can't wait to see the first FT10's.


Mummy
****

Nov 22, 2005, 3:31 PM

Post #14 of 44 (143008 views)
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First off, I never shout. Second, I guess if you think of a boat like the FT10 and the J24 in the same terms then we will never agree on anything. I sail a Mumm36 currently and can't imagine the boredom of sailing a J24 in normal wind conditions. I just hate going that slow. Now if tight, tactical racing at 4 1/2 knots is your idea of fun (and I know it is for many) then you won't understand why the FT10 is appealing. I would agree that a Melges 32 is more appealing but not being rich the FT10 is my most likely chance to own a FUN boat that I can take offshore. That kind of boat for less than 60K in the water in my slip is pretty damn appealing! Having communicated with lots of other people of like mind, I can tell you there are many others like me that will get on the bandwagon as soon as they see the product delivered as advertised. Besides, if it is a choice between a carbon B25 and a glass FT10 for the same price, what do you think is going to sell to the public better?


JP
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Nov 22, 2005, 4:18 PM

Post #15 of 44 (143004 views)
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Re: [Mummy] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Now you're getting my attention. I actually like the boat and thought about it. It's just not designed for offshore use (from what I've read in the FT-10 sites) that and the size of crew were the limiting factors, but it should be able to be trailered (with permits)
Originally from what I recall this boat is designed and marketed as a budget racer (not cheap junk). Very appealing at @60K I agree.
As far as the B25, I gotta see more and it is easily trailered.

I'm not putting the two boats in the same class, just commenting on the j-24 Class association. The point about the proposed FT-10 Class association is there was a whole lot of lot of nasty arguing and name calling going on in the homefield forum. The association is going to make or break the boat in the future. If the gun slinging in that forum doesn't stop, it won't help. Someone should rule the class with a firm hand. Isn't there something about a horse an ass and a committee.

I do wish you guy's the best with the FT-10, It's a long uphill battle. Do understand, I wanted to elicit discourse and I repeat, I should have titled the subject "Will the FT-10 Succeed?)


Mummy
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Nov 22, 2005, 4:35 PM

Post #16 of 44 (143002 views)
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Well, your entire first post was inflammatory and that's why you got the responses you did.

Had you been involved in the design of the original Anarchy 30 that happened a couple of years ago that precipitated Bob getting involved in wanting to produce a cost effective, fast race boat you might have a better understanding of how far the idea has come what a short distance it has to go. The class will get the rules worked out. The builder is involved and won't let them screw it up. In 5 years the FT10 will be the preeminent one design class in the US that normal folks can actually afford to join. I see a revolution coming and lots of people who are on the outside will get left behind.

Besides, even if it does fail, it will provide some excellent Olson 30 replacements for those of us wanting something a little more modern. And already, have you seen the price that a used H30 or M30 or Antrim 27 have come down to? How much influence is this boat already having?


Bird Man
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Nov 22, 2005, 9:36 PM

Post #17 of 44 (142980 views)
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Coming from a family that already has 2 on order, older brother and father, I think the boat is going to sell alot in the beginning, and once the market is set and people find out what is "wrong" with the boats when the are just out of the factory, will decide weather they make it or not. Both my dad and brother wanted bigger, faster, more high tech boats like a One Design 35 or a Muumm 30, but the ability to buy a new boat for less money that appears to be almost as fast and alot cheeper to campagin pushed them over the edge. Also on weither or not the boat will catch or not, I sailed one of the first J105's and hated it, the skipper half way through the season told his broker to come get the boat and he never wanted to see it again, and look where that class is, Im not saying that they know what they are going, which most of them dont, but the class took off. Another example of boats taking off are the Benaslow 36.7 and J-24. I cannot stand being on a boat and feeling slow and like crap, yet the Beneslow class just keeps growing and I think that we all agree that the J-24 class is one of the preimer classes in the world. So who knows what will happen with the FT-10, if it takes off, awsome, I have 2 boats that I can borrow and race, and if not Ill borrow my old mans and take it for a sail with 10 friends when its blowing 30. We just dont know what will happen, but we can say that Rob Perry seems to have followed the blue print for creating a successful product.


SSandy (banned)
Deleted

Nov 23, 2005, 7:09 AM

Post #18 of 44 (142935 views)
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Re: [Bird Man] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

JP, I am going to make a guess - you don't own any boat, right? What was that original price you mentioned that was "considerably less than $45K"? $39K? Did you forget that the extra is for carbon rig?

(EDIT: There was a reference removed that was implicating a person of being involved with this thread, of which they were not. - Scuttlebutt)




JP
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Nov 23, 2005, 3:03 PM

Post #19 of 44 (142874 views)
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I do own a sailboat. Please read the communication I have been having with Mummy. He got me to listen to his arguments.


JP
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Nov 23, 2005, 8:29 PM

Post #20 of 44 (142851 views)
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Sorry, one more item regarding the carbon rig; no change orders without approval. When you tell me you're going to deliver a specific boat for x dollars, you get x dollars for that boat. This is the problem I have with design by commitee after the fact. I'm sure potential FT owners are going to get a great product in the end and I hope everybody enjoys them. I'll more than likely see you guy's out on the water wearing grins from ear to ear.


JP
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Nov 25, 2005, 5:42 AM

Post #21 of 44 (142810 views)
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Re: [Bird Man] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

[I have 2 boats that I can borrow and race, and if not I'll borrow my old mans and take it for a sail with 10 friends when its blowing 30. We just dont know what will happen]

I know what will happen; As you approach the speed of light, time compresses.


sailstoo
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Nov 25, 2005, 7:24 AM

Post #22 of 44 (142804 views)
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Re: [Mummy] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Like Ted Turner once said, "Sailing is an obsolescent mode of transportation" which applies to Mummy's comments about "tight, tactical racing at 4 1/2 knots". What's better, going "fast" like 2x or 3x as fast? BFD, you're still going <20 mph and in most cases you're out there all alone. The point is, all sailing is relatively slow. The real challenge of the game is the tight, tactical part, the "physical chess game". You want fast, race a cat. Or a Cigarette. Or a Champ car.


Alan H
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Nov 30, 2005, 9:01 AM

Post #23 of 44 (142615 views)
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Re: [Mummy] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I was closely involved with the A30 project while it was going and I'm delighted that the FT-10 is getting as much traction as it is. It's a unique approach and while I'm not too keen on a lot of Sailing Anarchy, it seems to me that this project is a huge success. I e-mailed Bob Perry and told him as much. Not sure why he didn't mail me back, but he's a busy guy I suppose. No worries, Bob, and congratulations.

It's not a boat that I want but it's a boat that a whole lot of other people want. As long as the build quality is good, no reason why it shouldn't take off and do a production run of 100+. Remember, the Express 27 only built, what, 124 boats or something? If you build anywhere near 100 boats in a seven-year production run, you're an overwhelming success. At 50 or more ordered already, they're going phenomenally well, and good on 'em.

It's easy to stand aside and nit-pick about the details of a project that you don't like, eh? There's a simple answer to that. If it's not a boat you want, then sail something else.


Mummy
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Nov 30, 2005, 9:13 AM

Post #24 of 44 (142611 views)
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Re: [Alan H] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Hey Alan, good to see you online again. Just remember to keep your head down.

Also remember that without your time and effort the FT10 might not exist. You were the man that did most of the legwork on the Anarchy 30 and that let directly to this. Are you still sailing much or did you sell your boat?

Jan


Alan H
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Nov 30, 2005, 9:59 AM

Post #25 of 44 (142643 views)
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Re: [Mummy] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Hi, Jan....thanks for the kind comments. Good to hear from you, too! I, too take a bit of satisfaction out of how the A-30 evolved into the FT-10. 99% of the credit goes to Bob and Bob's design associates, though.

Wisdom is still for sale. I keep getting nibbles from Latitude 38 ads and now from the ebay ad, but nobody has written a check yet. When she sells I'll be getting another boat, but not sure what, yet. Probably a Santa Cruz 27, but I have stupid ideas about a mini 6.5, believe it or not. Whatever it is it will be smaller than the Santana and will live on a trailer to cut costs. The plan is SSS Singlehanded TransPac in '08.


Mummy
****

Nov 30, 2005, 10:23 AM

Post #26 of 44 (142652 views)
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Re: [Alan H] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

If they weren't so hard to get I would probably opt for an Express 27. They are such nice boats upwind too (considering they are a ULDB). Or you could just buy Cookie Jar and do the Transpac on another 24 foot boat. It will probably be faster than last time eh?

I've been double handing a Mumm 36 with a friend lately. It is quite a handful and was downright scary in 30 knots. Thank god the boat has a number 4 cause we don't have a second reef available for the main yet. Downwind with the chute up in 20 knots though is mighty fun. Hitting consistent 15's is very cool. We haven't really had a good 25 knot day that wasn't really rough yet to try for 20 knots of boat speed. It's just crazy to think of with just 2 people on that boat. Scary but exhilerating.


redboat
**

Nov 30, 2005, 11:28 AM

Post #27 of 44 (142648 views)
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Re: [Mummy] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The Sailing Anarchy FT 10 will do much of what many people want a boat to do at a very competitive pricepoint. It's a bold and innovative undertaking that may encounter some difficulty or disappoint some but if successful, which will likely be the case, will provide an exciting product.

Personally, I look forward to ordering one myself after they start producing/delivering them on a regular basis.

Hey Alan, phone home, you are missed by many.


the_sphincter
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Nov 30, 2005, 12:14 PM

Post #28 of 44 (142639 views)
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The FT10 will not fail. Look at the SA community. When you have a bunch of mates taking their boats to KWRW, you're going to want to take yours also. These 70 people who have deposits in for the boat aren't random people who don't know each other. I can guarantee every single person with a deposit in has been talking to other owners online. That's how you're going to build a class. The owners will have fun on AND off the water. People will see this and want to join up. And at 50k, it's not cheap, but there are american cars that cost more.


Alan H
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Nov 30, 2005, 4:39 PM

Post #29 of 44 (142622 views)
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Nah, I've experienced enough immature rudeness at SA to last a lifetime. Yes, there's some good stuff there, even some really good stuff. Still, I look at the site maybe once-twice a month and most times I do I find something in the first five minutes that makes me shake my head and shut down my browser.

Sailing S'butt is about right for me these days.


the_sphincter
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Nov 30, 2005, 6:14 PM

Post #30 of 44 (142614 views)
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That's what you're going to get on any relatively unmoderated board. Give immature arseholes computers and they'll make names like "the sphincter". All I'm saying is with that kind of subscription, every single one of those people knows about the FT10, and most like it. Having thousands of people talking about a boat does wonders for a new class.


Alan H
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Nov 30, 2005, 7:08 PM

Post #31 of 44 (142608 views)
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I agree. Hundreds, if not thousands of people know about the FT-10 now, in very large part because of SA.

I, too think that the class will do just fine. I won't be a part of it as an owner, but that doesn't mean that other people won't.


Buffalo Hunter
**

Dec 2, 2005, 10:50 AM

Post #32 of 44 (142536 views)
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Re: [Mummy] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Alan ,I too remember the huge effort you put in for the SA30.Good to see you haven't left the sport,esp after the Hawaii disapointment with Wisdom.

I hope your wife also got back on her bike as well.


JP
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Dec 3, 2005, 4:40 PM

Post #33 of 44 (142459 views)
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Re: [Alan H] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I appreciate your candid opinion and congratulate you on your efforts with the FT-10. However, if we look at some past sportboat projects, what in your opinion caused them to fail, such as the Viper 830 or the Henderson. Was it marketing? Economics? Not the right boat for the right time, price or poor class organization? I don't think price killed them, buying the boat is the cheap part.

From what I have observed, qualified crews on medium sized boats are hard to come by, unless it is in a well established class. The single and shorthanded distance races seem to appeal to boat owners and qualified crew. Correct me if I'm wrong, I understand the FT-10 to be sailed with a crew of 4 to 6 and not intended for offshore use. Perhaps the FT-10 is an Urban Racer and will appeal to city clubs.

A new design of 33 feet, draft of more than 6 feet, requiring a crew of more than 2 and succeeding will be another answer. It's a mid sized boat, all the fun of a small boat and the problems of a big boat. Had the FT-10 been designed along the "original" design philosophy of the Rodger Martin designed Quest 30/32-33, that would have been my downfall, but then it wouldn't be the FT-10.


Bird Man
***


Dec 4, 2005, 7:20 PM

Post #34 of 44 (142417 views)
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I cannot comment on wht the viper failed, but i have spent time on a henderson and i feel it failed because its sluggesh up wind, and unless you have 10 friends to call when the wind is over 10 kts, you cannot sail the boat to its potential because the spinnaker is so f*** big. Another reason is the henderson I spent time on races against a id 35 and in anything ogher than 6 to 10 (the range the id's dont like), in a 4 leg race, the id will be a whole leg ahead of us.

The success of the FT10 will decide on the amount of publicity the boat gets. If a bunch of owners decide to travel to a bunch of Nood regattas, and verious other regattas, and people see that the boat is a good all arround boat, more people will get them and hopefully they will replace the horrible 105's. No one knows, and olny time will tell.


Mummy
****

Dec 5, 2005, 12:01 PM

Post #35 of 44 (142397 views)
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I think the difference between a really successful boat and one that isn't might just be a matter of sail area. While we racers enjoy high powered boats, most owners I know find them to be kind of scary. Even the Mumm36 I sail on scares the owner pretty badly anytime it gets over 20 knots. So I am not sure a 'sportboat' is ever going to be successful. Ever sailed on a J105 in 25 knots? It's pretty fun and the boat isn't really overpowered. Try that on a Henderson! We'll see if Bob got the right mix on the FT10 or not. I also think enough interior to sit in after a race is important to most owners and the FT10 may have this right too. And then nobody wants a boat that kills you and is slow when sailed upwind. If you look back, the Express 27 may be the best example of a boat that got it all right and they are still very successful as a OD today.


Buffalo Hunter
**

Dec 12, 2005, 2:55 AM

Post #36 of 44 (142232 views)
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Bird Man,with the origins of the FT10 at SA,there'll be plenty of publicity.


Snappy
***


Dec 12, 2005, 8:21 AM

Post #37 of 44 (142219 views)
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Plenty of attention at SA, but that place tends to be a bit of an island, or maybe a cave based on some of the conversation there. Not mainstream, which is okay, unless you are trying to sell something.


billmce
*

Jan 2, 2006, 8:45 PM

Post #38 of 44 (141843 views)
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Re: [JP] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

It seems to me that the appeal of the FT10 lies in two areas: 1) the price and 2) a boat that will plane in winds that one encounters relatively frequently.

I don't know about most people but the sensation I get when a boat planes gives me quite a lift and if I can get it for some reasonable amount of dough - it gets my attention. That said though waiting a bit seems pretty prudent to see what they deliver from a quality prepsective and what sort of ride you are likely to get. I may not be "on thread" but if I had to pick two reasons why the boat would succeed those would be it.


Guest
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Jan 3, 2006, 6:45 AM

Post #39 of 44 (141811 views)
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Re: [JP] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

the ft 10 will fail because the void between the buyers expectations of value for money versus quality and the chinese builders expectation of what he is prepared to deliver for the price he is getting for the boat is far far greater than any one without china experience realises possible ... he will loose interest and move on to another project that he sees as being more profitable in the short term ...


JP
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Jan 21, 2006, 3:47 PM

Post #40 of 44 (141345 views)
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Re: [JP] Why the FT 10 Will Fail [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The A-30 is going to do it in and FT-10 sailors won't leave home without a protest flag.


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