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Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking?
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Guest
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Jan 26, 2006, 7:36 AM

Post #41 of 73 (85030 views)
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Re: [Guest] Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

so, which is more painful...

1.5mi weather leg in a droop hike, or 1.5m weather leg bent like a paper clip.

Regardless, Melges trumps anything else downwind.


Guest
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Jan 26, 2006, 8:51 AM

Post #42 of 73 (85019 views)
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Re: [Guest] Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Ban all hiking on on any boat? Are you out of your mind? I wonder why a "10x better sailor" doesn't know that if you're out of shape or don't like to hike hard a laser is the last boat on the planet (and mostly likely other planets too) that you should be sailing.

As for the M24, I saw the Mosely's crew take a swim in SF bay after a strap broke. Big whoop, go pick em up and remember next time, replace that frayed line the day before racing.

As a crew, hearing the skipper bitch about hiking hard is the same on M24s, Farr 40s, J24s and gee....every other boat. It doesn't matter if the straps are tighter, at the end of the day the hard core guys and gals will still have nerve damage. Do I compete in triathlons because it's healthy? Do I tell race officials that Racing flats don't provide enough padding and they should be outlawed because we might develop long term injuries from it? NO, because I have this body and I can do what I please. If my knees blow up when i'm 40, OK It was a fun ride and my choice.

The leaders of high performance fleets always seem to bust out front....(maybe it's the hiking)...Could that be because 1. they're better sailors and 2. fresh air (for you mid-fleeters that's what the leaders sail in) and in a boat like a M24 fresh air just makes it easier to pull away. The hiking isn't why they win.

Here's my advice: (i'm sure you can't wait) If you want to be like Judge Smails in Caddyshack buy a Flying Scot or another non hiking boat. If you want to sail hard and endure a little or a lot of pain buy a boat that allows you to do that, Lightning to Laser.

BUT, and this is very important, don't put traps on keel boats, don't complain if your fat, and for god sake just freaking sail, if you win, drink a beer half of it was luck and if you don't win, drink a beer half of it was luck! We're all in this together people.


Guest
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Jan 26, 2006, 10:51 AM

Post #43 of 73 (85015 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Perhaps we should also make the chute smaller so it's easier to set, jibe and take down, then impose a limit on the length of the race course and a maximum allowable breeze. I'm 38 yo and have sailed in the class for 11 years and, to be sure, it is more physically demanding for me now, but that's the very nature of the boat. My advice: get in shape or go to another class.


Guest
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Jan 26, 2006, 11:48 AM

Post #44 of 73 (85013 views)
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Re: [Guest] Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
I am sick and tired of watching all these young and in shape kids kick my butt in the laser. I am a 10X better sailor than they are but just can't keep up with them because I really don't want to hike that hard and pump the mainsheet on the waves. I say lets ban all hiking on any boat. That way it is just about your sailing skill, not your physical ability.

I love how over 3/4 of the post are from people who have never sailed a 24 or never will. I think it is obvious that these boats aren't for everyone. And to the owners that are crying about it, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the boat. Now you want to ruin it for those that enjoy the physical aspect of the 24. And If you are finishing in the bottom half of the fleet, it's has nothing to do with hicking or lack thereof. ANd to the adrenalin junkies that want to put trap on the boat, it's about time you gave up sailing and go back to mountain biking and hangliding.


It's a physical boat that was built and sails like a dinghy. If you don't want to play with them then stay on your Hunter with your scotch and bule blazer. I will see you with my Mount Gay & Coke by the pool with a 20 year old college girl in hand!!


Zebadee
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Jan 27, 2006, 9:06 AM

Post #45 of 73 (84975 views)
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Re: [Guest] Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Personally I have been racing M24's for years now, and we have always hiked hard. Its a simple fact of life (and physics), the harder you hike, the more your COG is improved. This applies on ALL boats, although can become ridiculous of course.

The hiking you see at Key West is what has been happening in the class for years, any boat that has done well (including ourselves) has always hiked hard in a breeze!

Yes, i have seen the hiking line snap and crew tumbling into the water - yes they were all fine and were practically splitting their sides in the yacht club afterwards (every time this happened!)

Whats the point of this post exactly? Wy does everyone suddenly care when its already been going on for years?
Wy single out M24's? Any race boat can improve performance by hiking / getting weight further out.

Sounds like most of you guys need to be in a different class, where you can have coffee and bacon sarnies as you 'plod' around the course. Or alternatively, theres always the cruising class......

M24's are one of the best bang for buck boats available, not many people can say they have been doing 23Slyknots in a 24foot boat, and i personally wont be stopping it either.


Rob
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Jan 27, 2006, 10:42 AM

Post #46 of 73 (84968 views)
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"Here's my advice: (i'm sure you can't wait) If you want to be like Judge Smails in Caddyshack buy a Flying Scot or another non hiking boat. If you want to sail hard and endure a little or a lot of pain buy a boat that allows you to do that, Lightning to Laser. "

I'll just point out that there are a LOT of great sailors out there who started in and continue to sail Flying Scots. None to my knowledge look like Judge Smails. Seriously though, the wonderful thing about sailing is that if you don't like a boat type or a class, there are about a thousand more classes to choose from. I've sailed Scots and Melges 24's...like them both just fine.


Surfer
***


Jan 29, 2006, 8:38 AM

Post #47 of 73 (84943 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Given the original design objectives and the associated target market segment
for the Melges 24 I feel that encouraging physical conditioning as aspect of championship
caliber Melges 24 racing is the best thing for the class long term.

That said, if the class decides to tighten the hiking lines then the total crew weight maximum
should be increased by 200 lbs, IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the original, and most important, draws to this class
is the boat itself and it's ability to fly off the wind in strong, surfing conditions.
Putting a more sever limit on the race crews ability to keep the boat fully powered up
n those conditions is contrary to, IMO, the primary reason many people have become involved in the class.

Just my opinion.

-Surfer


jthomp14az
*

Jan 30, 2006, 4:50 PM

Post #48 of 73 (84898 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I crewed on a Melges 24 on Tuesday during Key West Race Week. It has been 7 years since I raced seriously and longer since I raced something of the size of the 24 (normally larger). So clearly I should expect changes in racing, especially with the technology moving ahead at an exponential rate. I had done some refreshment training at J-World San Diego and had been tutored on the current realities of hiking, how to do it, and what is expected. Extreme hiking seems to be expected for short periods of time across the board of boat sizes. What seems to set the Melges 24 situation apart is that to win or even place in a competitive race requires constant extreme hiking. So I guess the question that I would have if I was heavy into this class is if extreme hiking represents a valuable skill or athletic quality in the art of sailboat racing. I have not read all posts to this topic, but I wonder if physicians' perspectives on whether this is a harmful practice shouldn't be addressed first. Past that perhaps a race by race determination would be best?


105racer
*

Jan 30, 2006, 4:51 PM

Post #49 of 73 (84898 views)
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Re: [Surfer] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

"The loose hiking line and extreme hiking is just another example of the how the sport of sailing is becoming more professional and pushing out the average 'Joe sailor.' " Have you ever seen the people that sail on Melges 24s?? The melges 24 class has the absolute best professional sailors in the world racing in it. The "joe sailors" race in the class just to have a chance to race against the best in the world. You don't buy a Melges 24 w/o out knowing your going to race agaisnt the best! If you don't want to sail the boat hard, then find an easier class to race in. Simple as that. Besides, hiking on the Melges is better then hiking hard on a boat with tight lifelines. The good teams will always hike harder and always go the extra mile, thats why they win.


IMCA
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Feb 6, 2006, 6:14 AM

Post #50 of 73 (84844 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From the International Melges 24 Class Executive Committee - The Melges 24 is an owner-driven class and the question of hiking line rules has been periodically discussed and amended since the boat's introduction in the early 1990s with the last amendment being made in 2002. The recent appearance of various hiking aids/hooks has reopened discussions about hiking line tension, hiking methods and the use of hiking aids. At the request of the owners the IMCA Technical Advisor is currently undertaking a further review of the relevant rules and the timing of the Scuttlebutt poll is therefore most fortuitous. The IMCA is watching the poll results with interest and very much appreciates all the comments submitted, particularly those from sailors with Melges 24 experience.


SailTrim
*****

Feb 6, 2006, 7:34 PM

Post #51 of 73 (84851 views)
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Re: [IMCA] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Hiking question ~ a completely serious question, how long after a week of hard hiking should the feeling return to the left side of my thigh?? You laugh, but I am being serious and if this is a common thing with the M24 I want to know how to evaid it. It is my current sailing goal to race a M24, get a M24 and practice, practice to compete in the worlds at some point . . . but I don't enjoy this rubber numb thing I have going on. That is my only concern with the insane hiking practices, the potential injury to the athletic sailor and my side job is to help athletic sailors stay injury free and sail till their dying day sort of thing . .


jwlord@MAC.COM
**

Feb 6, 2006, 7:53 PM

Post #52 of 73 (84848 views)
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Re: [SailTrim] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Do the folks over at the ISTA think about changing the rules because of the recurring bouts of tennis elbow? Restrict hiking off the shrouds of a J22, but not an individuals effort for the team.
jessica winslow lord


DwightB
*

Feb 6, 2006, 11:05 PM

Post #53 of 73 (84843 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Hiking should not be restricted in the M24 class beyond current limitations.

Having raced as the middle crew in the Melges 24 class in SF Bay, Santa Cruz, Ca, Key West, Fl and other windy venues, I am amused at the "question" posed. By design, this "dinghy" must be sailed flat or you will go sideways due to the high aspect design of the keel. There can be no arguement whether to hike or not. If you want to go upwind efficiently in a breeze and with a significant chop and/or waves, you better get out. It is not an option on these boats to swing your legs inwards with your back against a life line.

In Key West this year, we had great breezes that put a premium on boat handling. Like always, if you make a mistake, there are usually a handful of boats that will pass you before you can correct the error. Through the regatta we hiked really hard and I came home bruised and tired.

We are 100% amateur (two of us are in our 50s and two in our late 30s) and work out in the gym and cycle regularly. I know full well that we are competing with guys who were not born when I was racing 505s and the like on the West Coast in the 70's. I have raced everything from Finns and Stars to SC 70s and other IOR/IMS/PHRF and none of these boats are as much fun to sail nor as competitive (except Stars) a class as this is.

We know, in advance, that if we are not physically and mentally prepared to sail hard, our effort over a 9 race regatta will be tough and discouraging. In our case, we were 12th overall and 1st Corinthian. Absent several amateur boathandling mistakes, we would have avoided a couple finishes in the teens. As in any competition, you just have to be ready for what mother nature brings and prepare completely. When it blows, this is a tricky boat to sail well.

Photo courtesy of Tim Wilkes Photography.



Attachments: Hanging off a M24.jpg (16.2 KB)


The Publisher
*****


Feb 7, 2006, 5:58 AM

Post #54 of 73 (84825 views)
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Re: [DwightB] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Nice post. Got me to thinking if any hiking pants/pads were online, so I did some googling and found these "diapers" being sold by Doyle Detroit:



This guy seems pretty happy about being the Doyle diaper model. I guess Parker Shinn wasn't available.

- Craig Leweck, Scuttlebutt


SailTrim
*****

Feb 7, 2006, 6:06 AM

Post #55 of 73 (84822 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Nice ~ maybe I should invest into some of those . . . are they for real?


The Publisher
*****


Feb 7, 2006, 9:03 AM

Post #56 of 73 (84806 views)
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Re: [SailTrim] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Plenty real. Here is the link: http://www.doylesails.com/detroit-melges24.htm

Also, here is a thread with a couple other sources: http://sailingscuttlebutt.com/...m.cgi?post=1952#1952

- Craig Leweck, Scuttlebutt


SailTrim
*****

Feb 7, 2006, 9:35 AM

Post #57 of 73 (84798 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Thank you ~ I am familiar with the jackets, but I find when hiking hard, it is around the pelvic bone that needs help. The diaper looks good, but as my concern with the jacket, it is at the point the hip and torso flex that is most vulnerable to a good hiking form. There are some important anatomical components in the circulation and nerve systems that don't have great protection from the life line even on a muscular person. So my experience may not be from a M24, but I race on boats that do require serious non-pansy hiking and it is important to protect yourself for overal performance on the boat. Someone can train to be limber and flexible to maintain the nececssary hike for this boat, but a thin tension point across the lower abdoman for long periods of time is not good.


telemark
*

Feb 7, 2006, 11:25 AM

Post #58 of 73 (84793 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

  
The Melges 24 put on an awesome display in big air at the recent Key West Race Week. The boat's speed and seaworthiness were quite evident, while many problems existed in other classes. Also evident in the Melges class was the speed gap between the top boats and those in the back of the fleet. Some recommend measures designed to slow the lead boats down a bit, while it may be healthier to help those in the back of the fleet improve their speed. In many cases, those in the back need just a few pointers to have a steadier sail and shave minutes off each leg. Still, with subtle refinements to the rules we could improve the hiking comfort, and with it raise the general level of enjoyment for all on those long heavy-air beats.

After spending a week at beam max with what seemed like the weight of the entire crew bearing down on my "lap", I think we should raise the lifeline to be about 75mm off the deck while loaded at mid-span. That amount would make it more comfortable for the middle person, without dramatically reducing stability of the crew. Shortening the lifeline any more could have the adverse effect of pulling the crew backwards and in, while sailing through big waves or puffs.

Hiking has long been a key component to racing in most classes with our without lifelines. Many interesting and painful techniques were displayed at the recent Etchell 22 Worlds, at the front and back of the fleet. Pain was also around in the old J/24 days, where people would occasionally require medical treatment after loosing feeling in their legs from giving it "their all" against the bare wire. To address this most pressing health issue, padding the lifelines and clothing is encouraged and practiced by the Melges 24 class. At the recent 20-knot Key West Race Week, our boat was fully equipped with cushy lifelines and close-fitting pads for our hips. Everyone on the boat was quite happy with the effect, which also left no bruising on the hips to have to explain when we returned home.

Raising the lifeline 75mm and adding padding should level the playing field a bit in the breeze, but there will always be a separation between the front and the back of the fleet in both heavy and light air. Most of this can be attributed to the basic sailing skills of skipper and crew, but some of it comes from hard work. On most boats the crew trains off-season at least a little bit, so that on race day they can perform without discomfort. Many of the boats in the back of the fleet are still refining their sailing techniques and training methods. Some may not have crews that resemble the US Ski Team but they may do well to put a little more effort into preparing for this sport, which will always be physical even if we turn around and face inward.


rigmaster
*

Feb 7, 2006, 6:17 PM

Post #59 of 73 (84782 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I'm a non paid Melges 24 sailor and the physical ability and mental determination to hike hard is part of the game. If you don't like it, it seems to me it is not the boat for you. With all of the very extensive pro campaigns in whatever class it is, one will be able to find something they don't think is fair or would be better if changed. How do you please everyone? The class rules have a limit for the hiking line and it seems to me to be just fine. Compete against the corinthians and have fun.


sail59115
*


Feb 8, 2006, 10:01 AM

Post #60 of 73 (84755 views)
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Re: [rigmaster] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I'm not a Melges owner but a few years ago we went into the last race of a PHRF regatta with finishes identical to that of a Melges. Whoever won the last race won the regatta.

We came off the start line side by side and, two minutes later, watched three of their crew drop into the water.

I like the loose hiking line rule and vote not to change anything.

Charlie Clifton
Sarasota, FL


SW Sailor
**

Feb 8, 2006, 10:46 AM

Post #61 of 73 (84748 views)
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In Reply To
If hiking is an issue, do the owners vote?Is there a way to check
lifeline tension before and after a race?What is the weight limit and is there a weigh in required? I guess there is no rule on pro drivers either?If everyone agrees on these rules then you either agree or dont race.If the pros are allowed then its a great opp.for the amatuer sailor to see how they stack up against,and you will always improve and learn from the best!



Napoleon
*


Feb 8, 2006, 3:19 PM

Post #62 of 73 (84733 views)
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Re: [IMCA] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I for one hope they make the change to tighten the hiking lines.

Leverage = Speed?

I'm going out and recruiting new crew with abnormally large heads. Corner the market before all the other M24 owners get wise.



HEAD ***** HIKE ****** NOW!



Paul Hulsey
Hoodlum
USA 615
Attachments: Big Head.gif (11.0 KB)


Snappy
***


Feb 10, 2006, 10:14 AM

Post #63 of 73 (84690 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Pretty cool to see this thread getting play on the Melges 24 class website, along with other sailing sites. I am thinking that the class is taking a long look at this hiking deal.


Surfer
***


Feb 11, 2006, 8:03 AM

Post #64 of 73 (84678 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Well, if the class is required to tighten the hiking lines then
why not go to the next logical step and make all crew members
sit with their feet in the cockpit, ala the J100?

Personally I'd like to see the class go the other direction and
consider traps on the 24. But any restrictions to effective hiking
for me would be most disappointing.

I live and sail on a windy part of the west coast usa. One of the boats
I race on is a Sydney Harbor 38. Our lifelines are as loose as possible
and most of the crew likes it that way. Of course the driver likes that the most...

...either way, hiking hard is a fundamental requirement for high end racing
so please...let us hike effectively.

-Surfer


dierk
*

Feb 15, 2006, 7:38 AM

Post #65 of 73 (84627 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I come from the standard hiking world and have been in key west several times. This past year I did the Gold Cup and Key West in Melges 24.

All these keelboats at the top level seem to require extreme hiking.. Whether Farr 40, Mum or J105.. The Melges is more extreme. But all these boats i have had the same brutal midsection bruises. At least on the Melges the crews are getting sophisticated enough to utilize some padding.

The Melges is not a recreational (weekender team) racing boat when you have 30 knots and 5 foot waves like we had in key west a few days. No amount of changes to the hiking rule is really going to help.. it is a very tender boat and you need weight on the rail to make it go.

I think you need to raise the crew weight minimum and tighten the lifeline a bit. How about giving the crews a vote.. Skippers never hike and don't really know what we are talking about. I kept offering to switch in key west with our skipper.. he never took me up.


SailTrim
*****

Feb 15, 2006, 7:44 AM

Post #66 of 73 (84626 views)
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Any recent word on where the class association is on all this chatter?


IMCA
*

Feb 15, 2006, 11:30 AM

Post #67 of 73 (84617 views)
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Re: [SailTrim] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The International Melges 24 Class Technical Committee is closely monitoring the current correspondence relating to hiking lines and hiking aids. The next opportunity to consider a change to class rules is the IMCA World Council AGM which will take place in August 2006. The World Council is made up of representatives from each of the Melges 24 National Class Associations.

National Melges 24 Class Associations must submit proposals for rule changes no later than 60 days prior to the AGM. All rule change proposals will then be reviewed by the IMCA Technical Committee in preparation for consideration and voting at AGM.

Sailors who wish to see a change to the rules should immediately commence lobbying their National Class Officers/Technical Committees (see www.melges24.com/contact.asp?mode=nationalclassdir for contact details) to request that they make a formal rule change submission (please note that rule change submissions must go through a National Class Association and cannot be accepted from individuals).

Copies of the IMCA Class Rules & Constitution are available from http://www.melges24.com/rules.asp.

Fiona Brown
IMCA Administrator


Tommy Clough
*

Feb 21, 2006, 10:42 AM

Post #68 of 73 (84541 views)
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MELGES 457
SAMURAI

Well, here is my two cents from "the back of the pack". I have been racing on the Melges for 4 years now and gettting my butt waxed for most of them. First 2 years was as crew and the last 2 years as an owner/driver. Both sides make valid points (opinions made by Melges sailors, that is) and is easy to sway one way or the other. The first question however is , "How do we grow the class"? Next, "As a result of loose or tight life lines, will members be added"? I agree with someone who said that "what makes and supports this class, is the people in the back of the pack". The pro's don't, they are hired guns bouncing from class to class. I crewed at the worlds this year and I can tell you, everyone hiked. Maybe not as hard as some others. Getting spit out the back was not a result of hiking though, it was a result of being out sailed. Some complain that the pro's are hiking harder and that is why they were out front. THERE PRO'S!! This is what they do for a living and they make boats go fast. This is an easy but complex boat to sail. Yes, hiking helps tremendously, yes, hiking hurts. Try hanging on a line for 2 miles at a time on any sailboat with or without hiking belts. But as such, hiking is just one aspect of competitive sailing. There is also tactics, starts, rig tension, sail tension, boat prep, and on and on and on. I tried one of the hiking pads and guess what, it still hurts. Not as much though and I could stay on the life line longer. But instead of trying to shorten the lifelines, why don't we pass a rule that states that no hiking aparatus is allowed. Then, if your crew wants to hike there butt off, more power to ya. This will also alleviate another expense that the crew or owner will have to afford to "be competitive". The reason I joined this fleet is so I can learn from the best. If we all love racing, why not try to be the best we can. I have been able to approach any pro or member of this fleet with questions and have come out with a better knowledge of not only the boat, but sailing in general. Do I enjoy getting spanked at every regatta. No. I am like most, hate to lose, love to win. LEAVE THE LIFELINES ALONE!!! Get rid of the hiking belts. Oh yeah, one more thing, if your lifelines are breaking cause of hiking, blame your skipper for not taking care of his AMSTEEL lines.


MonkeyButt
*

Feb 27, 2006, 8:03 PM

Post #69 of 73 (84497 views)
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Re: [SailTrim] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Vastly amusing thread. The idea of sailors voting not to hike makes me smile.

Lots of M24s had thier hands full at this (and other) KWRW. This year 10% of the fleet broke masts. It's a littlle boat on big water. When you race M24 you race against the best in the world. Slowing the front of the fleet won't make me "feel better."

I checked our hiking lines for chafe every day. We put up a new backstay. KW will expose your weak links. M24 will expose you to the world of "no limits" racing. It's not for everyone.


gbr337
**

Feb 28, 2006, 9:50 AM

Post #70 of 73 (84478 views)
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IMCA - please dont destroy the class!

The boat is obvioulsly OK as it is, if people cant keep up with the top guys get a younger fitter crew or move out of the class.

We just purchased our boat in October and cant wait to start racing it hard this season, we bought the boat because it is hard work, it is thrilling, it's demanding and thats exactly what we want, we are a young team with an average age of 21 - where else would we get the chance to race such a fun boat against some of the best sailors in the world. The 2nd hand market for the boat is ideal for younger teams to get into the class, the last thing young people want to be is bored and they will if the hiking rules change!

As for trapezes, well - its been done and what class can people honestly say is as popular(keelboat/sportsboat) as the 24?

Also would people not consider trapezing as more dangerous? I know i would, even with the new quick release harnesses, that 11 year old kid that was sailing with Spithill, if you were his father/mother would you let him on a trapezing sportsboat in a decent breeze.

Sitting facing in - - bloody stupid idea that, first of all the foot rests arent big enough to handle the extra heel the boat would have due to the weight coming off the rail!

The only possible compromise id be ok with - if anything had to be done at all - would be for the lines to be tightened slightly - say a 4" or 6" gap when the middle section is pulled down.

The belts/nappies people are on about arent a major concern for me either - if thats what it takes to be comfy id wear one, whether that means a diy home made piece of sponge or pro made device. Should we stop people wearing gloves because it means that sailors can get extra purchase on sheets, you use a tool for the job.

Ok rant over.


WillieT
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Mar 1, 2006, 5:56 AM

Post #71 of 73 (84467 views)
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Re: [gbr337] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From 'butt today (Issue 2041), I understand how the M24 class wants feedback on this issue on their forum, where the odds are better that the respondants are class members. However, their forum has zero traffic, so unless they do a direct mail ballot to class members, they aint going to hear how their members feel.

It is funny how folks against the hiking ban forget that this class has been popular for a long time, well before the intro of hard hiking. The hiking aids are a new product to combat against the numbness and pain that result from hiking. By tightening the hiking line slightly, you will raise the point that the line grinds into your body, and sufficiently limit the amount that you can lean over. My guess is that the result will bring the amount of hiking back within the range of the bulk of the class, yet still allow those athletically inclined folks to still feel like they are "doing there thing."

When guys like Dave Ullman, who has become the king of heavy air and can afford the best hikers, feels that something needs to be done to limit the hiking... THEN WE SHOULD LISTEN. He has been in the class from the beginning, unlike many of the posers who care to comment. He has seen the change in the M24 class, has been involved in every OD known to man, and he is a good guy that can see the big picture.

Melges 24 class.... please don't table this issue!!


------------------

Dreaming of the BVI...


The Publisher
*****


May 16, 2006, 5:04 AM

Post #72 of 73 (83612 views)
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Re: [WillieT] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I must admit that this suprised me, mostly because of the degree of change proposed, but I have talked to too many people that felt that something had to be done for the overall health of the class:

HIKING THE MELGES - THE SITUATION DEVELOPS - May 2006

15 May 2006 - The discussion about the style of hiking that has developed in the class has been ongoing both publicly and within the class. The Executive Committee has decided to lead the resolution of the discussions. It is intended to put forward for consideration a proposal to tighten the hiking lines following the feedback from Harry Melges after sailing in Santa Cruz. He tried the boat with taut hiking lines:

“We had two boats and we tightened the hiking lines so they were completely tight.

It was unanimous that everyone that sailed on either boat thought it was great. We had girls and guys sailing and everyone thought it was much better than hiking over the lines when they are loose.

With the tight lines you just press into them, you keep your butt on the deck and it is much more comfortable and civilized.”


Although the wording has not yet been finalized, the Executive Committee is intending to propose a rule change for consideration and voting at the AGM in August in Hyères. At present it is envisaged the new rule will cover:

• The lines will be tight.
• The crews’ body position will be tightly controlled.
• The feet when sitting on the side must not promote standing on the gunwale.
• The crew may not use the lines to propel the body away from or off the boat.

The Executive Committee is of course looking for more feedback and urges the National Class Associations to prepare themselves for the AGM. It is hoped others will try out ideas and hold trials to gather information. This will ensure that the rule, if it is voted through at the AGM, will be one which the class can adopt without problems.


David Chivers
IMCA Technical Advisor
May 11th 2006


Link:
http://www.melges24.com/...ear=2006&id=1001





melges419
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May 16, 2006, 6:39 AM

Post #73 of 73 (83608 views)
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Re: [WillieT] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

not sure where this came from but hope it is true. i still feel the hiking devices are illegal and it hurt our boat greatly at the worlds not using them. if this is true it should even out the fleet some. the skill will be the ultimate decision maker on the course instead of equipment/weight on the rail. Smile
Sail Often and have fun


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