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Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking?
Team McLube

 



The Publisher
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Jan 24, 2006, 10:36 AM

Post #1 of 73 (278901 views)
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Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? Log-In to Post/Reply

During the 2005 Melges 24 Worlds in December, the top sailors exposed a newly found speed advantage: hiking (see images below). The class has never had lifelines, but rather the M24 has what they term a hiking line. The class rules have always regulated the hiking line to be rather loose, though its use for hiking has only recently been fully exploited.

The question is whether this is a good thing or not. It is widely agreed that hiking hard on the M24 has proven to be very fast, but it's not easy to do and most sailors use special belly pads to do it well. Since not everyone in the class is willing to make the sacrifice (hiking against the hiking line, even with pads, is not comfortable, and the later part of the fleet is generally not hiking), should the class make a change to keep the fleet together? Tighten the hiking line, and you restrict the hiking. Keep it loose, and you go faster.

Good arguments on either side of this, and here is what we learned after taking the poll:

Should the Melges 24 class tighten the hiking line to restrict hiking?

Final Results:
Yes - 57.91%
No - 42.09%

Reply with comments below.


(photos by Thierry Martinez)




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Jan 24, 2006, 2:17 PM

Post #2 of 73 (278864 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I voted to tighten the hiking line. There was a time when we didn't hike, and we loved sailing the boat. Now we are forced to hike, though often don't because it is absolutely painful, and hate the feeling of not being able to sail on an equal footing.

It seems so easy to go back to the way it was. The boats will still be great.




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Jan 24, 2006, 3:37 PM

Post #3 of 73 (278859 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Never sailed an M24, but I have sailed enough to know that it is more important to keep the playing field level. I have heard that some folks still haven't recovered from the hiking at the Worlds. Something about nerve damage. Seems silly to let the front of the fleet get further away from the back of the fleet when a simple fix is available


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Jan 24, 2006, 6:36 PM

Post #4 of 73 (278848 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

 Seems silly to let the front of the fleet get further away from the back of the fleet when a simple fix is available


The front of the fleet will always continue to pull away from the back of the fleet. Regardless of a hiking rule or not, because they always do what it takes to win. They are not out there just to have a good time. They are out there to win. If you are out there to win, then hike. If you don't want to hike, get a different boat.


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mdevries@pacbell.net

Jan 24, 2006, 6:59 PM

Post #5 of 73 (278837 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

These photo's look ubsurd! Its hard to say that the crw on these boat is doing anyhting that could even remotely be called sailing. The M24 is a highly weight sensitive ULDB; boat like this rely on hiking as part of their performance upwind. I'm no longer sailing an M-24 but these photo's look like their is no restriction at all on hiking. Most classes have some kind of restriction - both for safety and to maintain a reasonable level playing field across crwws off different size and athletic ability.

If hiking hurts too much, only a few "pro" boats will hike full on and it become a tradeoff of how hard to try vs how much pain to inflict on the crew. This can not be positive for the class in any way.


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Jan 24, 2006, 7:00 PM

Post #6 of 73 (278835 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I can just see the driver trying to pick up his 4 crew who fell overboard when their line broke in 30 kts. Time to real in the line.


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tprice@usna.edu

Jan 24, 2006, 7:00 PM

Post #7 of 73 (278834 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Looks frickin ridiculous.(feels worse) It would be a better boat if the crew could turn around and sit out like God intended rather than be facing outboard, legs and arms outstretched as if to say "help, get me off of this hell ship!" Then of course, that would lead to Soling type droop hiking. Somehow it feels right in a Star but on a Melges? Either have hiking straps but no drooping or face the wrong way and tighten straps to limit silly hiking.


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Jan 24, 2006, 7:07 PM

Post #8 of 73 (278828 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

First, i'm not sure how this is newly discovered. I think we've always known that leverage= speed uphill.
Second, I could not disagree more with those that say they should be tightened. The appeal of the m24 is a physical, dinghy-like boat. We just wore lifejackets and could hike pretty hard, never even knew this was a problem.
To me (humble opinion), saying we need to keep the fleet together by restricting those that try hard (nobody has said its breaking a rule or even anything shady) is the beginning of the end for a fun class. What's next? Sonar rules of nobody outside the boat?
The 24 came from scow people, where hiking straps, even on a 38ft boat, is the norm. Consider the "hiking lines" a compromise.
Call the lines what you want, just don't take away the rewarding feeling I get from hiking hard and knowing i'm making a difference. Heaven forbid sailing involve breaking a sweat or a little physical fitness....


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timh@cruzio.com

Jan 24, 2006, 7:14 PM

Post #9 of 73 (278826 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I own a M24, and did KWRW once (2004), and definately found that it was quite uncomfortable to hike properly, and thus hiked hard for a while, and then layed off for a few minutes to make it tolerable. We even covered the lifelines with PVC (2"), and extra pading. The chop (4'+) off KW was really steep and pounded us hard. All that, and we ended up mid-fleet anyhow; so I wouldn't say that the difference between the leaders and the following fleet is purely due to hiking. It's also about a really, really good start. A driver that can keep the boat pointing *and* fast, which is a challenge and takes quite a bit of practice. The driver on the M24 is probably overloaded because they also constantly trim the main, traveler and backstay (though on some boats they have modified the main sheet block forward of the traveler for the trimmer). I think (not being a pro mind you), that it's a little of everything -- complex systems generally don't have one point of failure...


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hugh.elliot@earthlink.net

Jan 24, 2006, 7:37 PM

Post #10 of 73 (278817 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Let the class members do whatever they wants but don't count on me ever sailing an M24.


Guest
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Jan 24, 2006, 7:39 PM

Post #11 of 73 (278815 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The M-24 is a very physical boat. If you want to do well, you must sail it physically, which includes hiking hard! I used to own a M-24 and when the breeze was on, found it easier to remain up on the rail while hiking as opposed to just 'sitting on the high side'. When the boat rolls in on a puff, you don't tend to fall into the boat. If you are opposed to the physical exertion that it takes to hike a M-24, then you may be sailing in the wrong class.


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Jan 24, 2006, 8:27 PM

Post #12 of 73 (278805 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The statment "if you can't take the heat... get out of the kitchen" comes to mind.
Why slow down a boat where speed is your friend? Pad yourself up go to the gym stop complaining and go sailing.
If you don't want to hike go cruising!


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Jan 24, 2006, 9:05 PM

Post #13 of 73 (278794 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Sure don't see Dave hiking, only the crew. Owners don't hike, but do vote on class rules changes.


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Anton Huggler <sui47@seanet.com>

Jan 24, 2006, 11:42 PM

Post #14 of 73 (278781 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

If the M24 sails like a dinghy... why don't they have trapeze for the crew?
It would be equally effective re speed, still demand athletic sailors but certainly be far more comfortable than flossing stomach.


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auctio@bigpond.com

Jan 25, 2006, 12:13 AM

Post #15 of 73 (278778 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Most small yachts these days are being designed with less weight to add speed and designers are possibly relying on the owners and their crew to think about hiking out to improve the end speed....the more they hike, the better the performance.
In yachts such as Soling, Star and sometime even Etchells, hiking is apparent and in some cases necessary. If the Melges 24 has a rule against it then MANDATE it and that's that, if not then go for it boys........
My crew hike as far as they can on a 30 foot one design and I hear noone complaining...
Akela


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Jan 25, 2006, 12:28 AM

Post #16 of 73 (278776 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Why should the sailors that are making that extra effort be held back, just because the boats at the back of the flee dont want to make the effort or suffer the added discomfort.


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Jan 25, 2006, 4:39 AM

Post #17 of 73 (278759 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Why not really make it a physical boat? I seem to recall that Paul Elvstrom himself suggested getting rid of the hiking lines altogther, reduce the crew number to three and adding trapezes for everyone.
That would get everyone in the gym, put a premium on an athletic style of sailing and and best suit many hardcore blowhards. It would even drop owner's costs for Key West -- only three crew to house and feed instead of four or five.

If the class wants to keep the crew limited to four decent sized adults who hike their nuts off, keep the hiking lines. If they want proper hiking inside life lines, raise the weight limit.


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rjc11@yahoo.com

Jan 25, 2006, 5:39 AM

Post #18 of 73 (278746 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I think Safety should come into play. Can you see the driver trying to pick up his crew who fell overboard when the hiking strap broke on a cold windy day.


Dgeorge403
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Jan 25, 2006, 6:13 AM

Post #19 of 73 (278733 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I have been a regular crew on a Melges 24 for many years. I am all for going fast, but should we have to hurt ourselves, be in pain, or be really uncomfortable most of the day to enjoy racing on a Melges? I don't think so. Hopefully the Melges fleet will tighten up the hiking line rule, otherwise the bottom 3/4 of the fleet will never have a chance to compete. Most crews will not hike that hard all the time during a race. The loose hiking line and extreme hiking is just another example of the how the sport of sailing is becoming more professional and pushing out the average "Joe sailor."


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Jan 25, 2006, 6:33 AM

Post #20 of 73 (278725 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply


In Reply To
If you are out there to win, then hike. If you don't want to hike, get a different boat.


I didn't not vote yes or no as I don't sail the boat. I already own a different boat and it fun to race. Sounds like the beginning of the end of the class to me. The top dogs come and go with the hottest new thing. The backenders are the life blood of any class. If they're losing and its no fun, the backender stop coming. Long term classes like Lightning, Snipes, and Thistles take care of their backenders!! It protects the investment.


melges419
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Jan 25, 2006, 7:05 AM

Post #21 of 73 (278718 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

As someone that is very involved including in the decision making in this I feel that the hiking lines should be tightened somewhat to avoid the kind of hiking that is happening now where people are hanging over the lines instead of against them. By tightening up the hiking lines somewhat we would hopefully get rid of the devices that some people think are legal and I along with many think are illegal. These devices make it so that people can hang o the hiking lines for long periods and give them an advantage. But there are some hard materials used to assist them and reading the rules I think they are highly illegal. This is definitely not everyone's opinion but the rule seems clear to me.
Sail Often and have fun


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Jan 25, 2006, 7:39 AM

Post #22 of 73 (278711 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Just because they're called "life lines" in any other class, I don't think safety is a real issue here. No those guys are just trying to get away from their work after a stressful week. And if a few crew without 6 pk. abs find it uncomfortable to have a padded wire trying to perform an appendectomy on them while they're going up the beats (the weenies), there's a simple solution. All you need to do is hang six more wires off the masthead and put everyone in trapeze harnesses. It will provide the ultimate comfort for the crew and provide loads of spectator value in 25-30 mph winds as half a dozen guys try to get across and out on the other side during a tack.

Should be a hoot.


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rr6013@netscape.net

Jan 25, 2006, 8:03 AM

Post #23 of 73 (278706 views)
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Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Compression loads on lower back vertabrae from Melges-style hiking ensures predictable back problems.

My "YES" vote is for the protection of health and human safety. I have the knees and back problems from hiking on sailing boats to back up that vote, as do any other sailors who have campaigned Finn, Star, Etchells, 505, and club-level lifeline-hiker sleds as-pictured.

It's immoral sanction of destructive behavior to foster competition, at the expense of the unwitting.


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teamkyrnos@hotmail.com

Jan 25, 2006, 8:24 AM

Post #24 of 73 (278699 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

This is the most ridiculous attempt to make a keel boat faster. Where does it stop? Why not put all the guys on a trapeze? Either remove the "hiking line" or have them install a tight lifeline.


In Reply To
During the 2005 Melges 24 Worlds in December, the top sailors exposed a newly found speed advantage: hiking (see images below). The class has never had lifelines, but rather the M24 has what they term a hiking line. The class rules have always regulated the hiking line to be rather loose, though its use for hiking has only recently been fully exploited.

The question is whether this is a good thing or not. It is widely agreed that hiking hard on the M24 has proven to be very fast, but it's not easy to do and most sailors use special belly pads to do it well. Since not everyone in the class is willing to make the sacrifice (hiking against the hiking line, even with pads, is not comfortable, and the later part of the fleet is generally not hiking), should the class make a change to keep the fleet together? Tighten the hiking line, and you restrict the hiking. Keep it loose, and you go faster.

Good arguments on either side of this, so click here to take the poll.

Reply with comments below.


(photos by Thierry Martinez)






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Jan 25, 2006, 8:26 AM

Post #25 of 73 (278699 views)
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Re: [Guest] Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I am sick and tired of watching all these young and in shape kids kick my butt in the laser. I am a 10X better sailor than they are but just can't keep up with them because I really don't want to hike that hard and pump the mainsheet on the waves. I say lets ban all hiking on any boat. That way it is just about your sailing skill, not your physical ability.

I love how over 3/4 of the post are from people who have never sailed a 24 or never will. I think it is obvious that these boats aren't for everyone. And to the owners that are crying about it, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the boat. Now you want to ruin it for those that enjoy the physical aspect of the 24. And If you are finishing in the bottom half of the fleet, it's has nothing to do with hicking or lack thereof. ANd to the adrenalin junkies that want to put trap on the boat, it's about time you gave up sailing and go back to mountain biking and hangliding.


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melgesguy@gmail.com

Jan 25, 2006, 9:05 AM

Post #26 of 73 (278669 views)
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Where did you get the idea that the top teams just discovered this new way to go fast? Long before there were any hiking aids these crews were hiking their asses off. I was taught to sail a Melges 4 years ago on a mid-level team and the owner of the boat showed us how to hike JUST LIKE THIS back then. The hiking line tension has been the same since the inception of the class. The hiking aids recently developed by Pegasus and some others have actually levelled the playing field some as now those with slightly less physical endurance and conditioning can now hike out for longer. Look at Mumm 30s and numerous other overpowered designs and you'll see the same kind of hiking. On every keelboat I've ever raced the crew hikes as hard as they can, and then they hike some more. Remember some things about the class you're all bitching about: 100 plus boats at Worlds, 60 at Key West, many of the top sailors in the world at both events, many as OWNERS. It's also an incredibly tightly knit group of people from all over the world, and part of this is that not everyone can handle the boat. With all this, it hardly seems to be "the beginning of the end."
Maybe a lot of you don't realize that sail racing is a sport in serious decline. Some of us are doing what we can to get the next generation involved, and the next generation is NOT INTERESTED in non-athletic endeavours. Sail racing needs to compete with all the exciting sports out there, and wearing a blue blazer while you sail your piggish old boat around the course just isn't exciting to 18 year olds, and does absolutely NOTHING for the future of the sport that we love. You out of shape or physically challenged people need to stick to your catalinas and let the adrenaline junkies sail boats like these. There's always jib-and-main and gunkholing for you.


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deckstars@msn.com

Jan 25, 2006, 9:35 AM

Post #27 of 73 (278656 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Sailing shouldn't hurt like that must after a heavy air regatta. Having sailed Thistles for 25 years, the pain factor has hurt class growth, and it will hurt the Melges calss too.


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Jan 25, 2006, 9:51 AM

Post #28 of 73 (278647 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

last I checked, everyone has the same opportunity to hike (although some may CHOOSE not to). Sounds like a level playing field to me. If you can't handle a little pain and physical activity, you may be in the wrong fleet. M24s are about performance and pushing a boat to its limits in order to gain an edge. Comfort just doesn't fit into this class.


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billhardesty

Jan 25, 2006, 10:01 AM

Post #29 of 73 (278643 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Lifelines should be eliminated all together. Install some hand rails and hold on. Sail the boats more like a j-22. If you tighten the lifelines we will continue to do the same thing, only with tighter lifelines. It is more than leaning, it is arms out and feet up to keep them out of the water. Until the rule changes you will need to wear a hiking pad called, "the manpon" made by either Hutchinson Sports or Max Skelly and have a nice big bottle of advil onboard.

Bill Hardesty


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bboyd1@san.rr.com

Jan 25, 2006, 10:02 AM

Post #30 of 73 (278644 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

If you don't like the sailing style, don't buy that type of boat. I sailed a Thistle a few years and they were pretty brutal on skipper and crew being perched on a two inch wide rail with feet under hiking straps. Oh yeah, you got to slam into the centerboard trunk on each tack too. The M24 is just an extension of the "extreme" progression in most competitive sports such as skiing, skate boarding, motocross, etc.


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platt1@cox.net

Jan 25, 2006, 10:20 AM

Post #31 of 73 (278637 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

It's a keelboat! Keelboats go slow and requiring crews to damage their nerves and bruise their hip bones for a tenth of a knot of upwind speed is ridiculous.
I did the World's and KWRW as the skipper and I hiked in the real strong breeze so my lighter wife could drive. To really hike hard makes it difficult to breath, bruises your hips and causes numbness in the legs and that was with the $130 hiking pads I bought for the crew.
If the Melges class really wants to hike then allow trapezes for 2-3 of the crew, now that would be cool and comfortable.
But again it is a keelboat, not a dinghy so what's the point.
BTW the really hard hikers are paid to hike and they are not as old as the skippers are. It is the rare amateur who will hike for a mid fleet finish for free.
A final point is that the Melges 24 class has died on the local level, is this the reason why?


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Jan 25, 2006, 10:50 AM

Post #32 of 73 (278632 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

The international class rules allow for a level playing field in this area by limiting the amount the lifelines can be loosened:

C.3.13. When pushing down hard on the hiking lines at the mid point between the two centre stanchions,
no part of the hiking line including padding etc shall touch the deck.

Having participated in the worlds, I can attest that all class rules were being enforced by an international committee and jury. The boats in the front of the fleet compared to those in the back of the fleet had more going for them than just hiking harder.


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Jan 25, 2006, 12:05 PM

Post #33 of 73 (278627 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

This is going too far - whatever happened to torso perpendicular to the water? Dinghys are for hiking, keelboats are not...


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mydawgcharlie@aol.com

Jan 25, 2006, 12:39 PM

Post #34 of 73 (278622 views)
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I wouldn't buy the boat. Looks like too much work! But that's just me. There are other boats out there that are a bit more sedate.


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newsdog@viaccess.net

Jan 25, 2006, 3:49 PM

Post #35 of 73 (278599 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I've sailed M24s in fleet racing with a double lifeline set up and still been hiking damn hard for big periods of upwind work. Just passed my 50th b-day. Without years of hiking my ass off on J-24s J-29s, etc. etc. I wouldn't have had the tolerance for it. Is it only the boats I'm on that say "hike hard guys, we need to make this mark"? if you need it once in a while then all the time is better. Suck it up, hike hard, win races.
ps the pain is nothing like being stopped by the shrouds when nose dive broaching a Melges as illustrated by some of the pictures from big wind days at KWRW.
Wally Bostwick


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Jan 25, 2006, 6:45 PM

Post #36 of 73 (278561 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

This technique looks dangerous. Bad enough to have one crew fall overboard, but a broken line would leave the skipper alone with three crew in the water and the packed fleet sailing right at them. Does anyone still use common sense? Maybe the "life" lines should be removed and old fashioned, tried-and-true dinghy hiking straps installed. Works well on slightly smaller performance boats like the Viper 650.


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timh@cruzio.com

Jan 25, 2006, 6:59 PM

Post #37 of 73 (278556 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Actually, *I* did hike. At 255lbs, I had to, and let someone else drive...


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timh@cruzio.com

Jan 25, 2006, 7:01 PM

Post #38 of 73 (278555 views)
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Re: [Guest] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

We've broken our lifelines 3 different times and have been dumped in SF bay -- burr -- and the driver had us back in the boat within a few minutes. No worries.


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timh@cruzio.com

Jan 25, 2006, 7:10 PM

Post #39 of 73 (278552 views)
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SEDATE? Oh, my! Our M24 has go as fast as 18kts on Lake Tahoe, and we were yelling our heads off hooping and hollaring. The M24 is just the right size to avoid the wetsuit, but still go almost as fast as the 49ers. Sometimes we share a course with J/105's and J/120's -- and just blow by them like they ain't going no where. Downwind fun, fun, fun; and a bit uncomfortable upwind.

BTW, last year, we beat 120 boats from Richmond (no SF bay) all the way to Stockton 67.5 miles downwind. Then a big BBQ, the band and camping on the grass. What a life!


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Jan 26, 2006, 6:19 AM

Post #40 of 73 (278471 views)
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Re: [Guest] Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Boy I could not agree more with you.....easy talk from the cheap seats. The M24 is a sport boat, not a skiff or an overbuilt keel boat. It was designed to be physical, fast, and fun. It is not the easiest boat to sail and it takes years to learn how to get her up to speed in the breeze.

The M24 puts a strong light on a good start and killer speed off the line. Once you pop out and get a lane, things open up, sailing 101; as my college coach (CofC) would say "win the start, hit the first shift and extend" (easier said than done).

The M24 is one of the best bangs for the buck, hands down....then you turn the corner and start ripping downhill, you forget all about the pain...it is just plain FUN!


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Jan 26, 2006, 7:36 AM

Post #41 of 73 (84985 views)
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Re: [Guest] Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

so, which is more painful...

1.5mi weather leg in a droop hike, or 1.5m weather leg bent like a paper clip.

Regardless, Melges trumps anything else downwind.


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Jan 26, 2006, 8:51 AM

Post #42 of 73 (84974 views)
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Re: [Guest] Melges-Style Guide to Good Health and Hiking [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Ban all hiking on on any boat? Are you out of your mind? I wonder why a "10x better sailor" doesn't know that if you're out of shape or don't like to hike hard a laser is the last boat on the planet (and mostly likely other planets too) that you should be sailing.

As for the M24, I saw the Mosely's crew take a swim in SF bay after a strap broke. Big whoop, go pick em up and remember next time, replace that frayed line the day before racing.

As a crew, hearing the skipper bitch about hiking hard is the same on M24s, Farr 40s, J24s and gee....every other boat. It doesn't matter if the straps are tighter, at the end of the day the hard core guys and gals will still have nerve damage. Do I compete in triathlons because it's healthy? Do I tell race officials that Racing flats don't provide enough padding and they should be outlawed because we might develop long term injuries from it? NO, because I have this body and I can do what I please. If my knees blow up when i'm 40, OK It was a fun ride and my choice.

The leaders of high performance fleets always seem to bust out front....(maybe it's the hiking)...Could that be because 1. they're better sailors and 2. fresh air (for you mid-fleeters that's what the leaders sail in) and in a boat like a M24 fresh air just makes it easier to pull away. The hiking isn't why they win.

Here's my advice: (i'm sure you can't wait) If you want to be like Judge Smails in Caddyshack buy a Flying Scot or another non hiking boat. If you want to sail hard and endure a little or a lot of pain buy a boat that allows you to do that, Lightning to Laser.

BUT, and this is very important, don't put traps on keel boats, don't complain if your fat, and for god sake just freaking sail, if you win, drink a beer half of it was luck and if you don't win, drink a beer half of it was luck! We're all in this together people.


Guest
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Jan 26, 2006, 10:51 AM

Post #43 of 73 (84970 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Perhaps we should also make the chute smaller so it's easier to set, jibe and take down, then impose a limit on the length of the race course and a maximum allowable breeze. I'm 38 yo and have sailed in the class for 11 years and, to be sure, it is more physically demanding for me now, but that's the very nature of the boat. My advice: get in shape or go to another class.


Guest
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Jan 26, 2006, 11:48 AM

Post #44 of 73 (84968 views)
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In Reply To
I am sick and tired of watching all these young and in shape kids kick my butt in the laser. I am a 10X better sailor than they are but just can't keep up with them because I really don't want to hike that hard and pump the mainsheet on the waves. I say lets ban all hiking on any boat. That way it is just about your sailing skill, not your physical ability.

I love how over 3/4 of the post are from people who have never sailed a 24 or never will. I think it is obvious that these boats aren't for everyone. And to the owners that are crying about it, you knew what you were getting into when you bought the boat. Now you want to ruin it for those that enjoy the physical aspect of the 24. And If you are finishing in the bottom half of the fleet, it's has nothing to do with hicking or lack thereof. ANd to the adrenalin junkies that want to put trap on the boat, it's about time you gave up sailing and go back to mountain biking and hangliding.


It's a physical boat that was built and sails like a dinghy. If you don't want to play with them then stay on your Hunter with your scotch and bule blazer. I will see you with my Mount Gay & Coke by the pool with a 20 year old college girl in hand!!


Zebadee
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Jan 27, 2006, 9:06 AM

Post #45 of 73 (84930 views)
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Personally I have been racing M24's for years now, and we have always hiked hard. Its a simple fact of life (and physics), the harder you hike, the more your COG is improved. This applies on ALL boats, although can become ridiculous of course.

The hiking you see at Key West is what has been happening in the class for years, any boat that has done well (including ourselves) has always hiked hard in a breeze!

Yes, i have seen the hiking line snap and crew tumbling into the water - yes they were all fine and were practically splitting their sides in the yacht club afterwards (every time this happened!)

Whats the point of this post exactly? Wy does everyone suddenly care when its already been going on for years?
Wy single out M24's? Any race boat can improve performance by hiking / getting weight further out.

Sounds like most of you guys need to be in a different class, where you can have coffee and bacon sarnies as you 'plod' around the course. Or alternatively, theres always the cruising class......

M24's are one of the best bang for buck boats available, not many people can say they have been doing 23Slyknots in a 24foot boat, and i personally wont be stopping it either.


Rob
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Jan 27, 2006, 10:42 AM

Post #46 of 73 (84923 views)
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"Here's my advice: (i'm sure you can't wait) If you want to be like Judge Smails in Caddyshack buy a Flying Scot or another non hiking boat. If you want to sail hard and endure a little or a lot of pain buy a boat that allows you to do that, Lightning to Laser. "

I'll just point out that there are a LOT of great sailors out there who started in and continue to sail Flying Scots. None to my knowledge look like Judge Smails. Seriously though, the wonderful thing about sailing is that if you don't like a boat type or a class, there are about a thousand more classes to choose from. I've sailed Scots and Melges 24's...like them both just fine.


Surfer
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Jan 29, 2006, 8:38 AM

Post #47 of 73 (84898 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Given the original design objectives and the associated target market segment
for the Melges 24 I feel that encouraging physical conditioning as aspect of championship
caliber Melges 24 racing is the best thing for the class long term.

That said, if the class decides to tighten the hiking lines then the total crew weight maximum
should be increased by 200 lbs, IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the original, and most important, draws to this class
is the boat itself and it's ability to fly off the wind in strong, surfing conditions.
Putting a more sever limit on the race crews ability to keep the boat fully powered up
n those conditions is contrary to, IMO, the primary reason many people have become involved in the class.

Just my opinion.

-Surfer


jthomp14az
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Jan 30, 2006, 4:50 PM

Post #48 of 73 (84853 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I crewed on a Melges 24 on Tuesday during Key West Race Week. It has been 7 years since I raced seriously and longer since I raced something of the size of the 24 (normally larger). So clearly I should expect changes in racing, especially with the technology moving ahead at an exponential rate. I had done some refreshment training at J-World San Diego and had been tutored on the current realities of hiking, how to do it, and what is expected. Extreme hiking seems to be expected for short periods of time across the board of boat sizes. What seems to set the Melges 24 situation apart is that to win or even place in a competitive race requires constant extreme hiking. So I guess the question that I would have if I was heavy into this class is if extreme hiking represents a valuable skill or athletic quality in the art of sailboat racing. I have not read all posts to this topic, but I wonder if physicians' perspectives on whether this is a harmful practice shouldn't be addressed first. Past that perhaps a race by race determination would be best?


105racer
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Jan 30, 2006, 4:51 PM

Post #49 of 73 (84853 views)
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Re: [Surfer] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

"The loose hiking line and extreme hiking is just another example of the how the sport of sailing is becoming more professional and pushing out the average 'Joe sailor.' " Have you ever seen the people that sail on Melges 24s?? The melges 24 class has the absolute best professional sailors in the world racing in it. The "joe sailors" race in the class just to have a chance to race against the best in the world. You don't buy a Melges 24 w/o out knowing your going to race agaisnt the best! If you don't want to sail the boat hard, then find an easier class to race in. Simple as that. Besides, hiking on the Melges is better then hiking hard on a boat with tight lifelines. The good teams will always hike harder and always go the extra mile, thats why they win.


IMCA
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Feb 6, 2006, 6:14 AM

Post #50 of 73 (84799 views)
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From the International Melges 24 Class Executive Committee - The Melges 24 is an owner-driven class and the question of hiking line rules has been periodically discussed and amended since the boat's introduction in the early 1990s with the last amendment being made in 2002. The recent appearance of various hiking aids/hooks has reopened discussions about hiking line tension, hiking methods and the use of hiking aids. At the request of the owners the IMCA Technical Advisor is currently undertaking a further review of the relevant rules and the timing of the Scuttlebutt poll is therefore most fortuitous. The IMCA is watching the poll results with interest and very much appreciates all the comments submitted, particularly those from sailors with Melges 24 experience.


SailTrim
*****

Feb 6, 2006, 7:34 PM

Post #51 of 73 (84806 views)
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Hiking question ~ a completely serious question, how long after a week of hard hiking should the feeling return to the left side of my thigh?? You laugh, but I am being serious and if this is a common thing with the M24 I want to know how to evaid it. It is my current sailing goal to race a M24, get a M24 and practice, practice to compete in the worlds at some point . . . but I don't enjoy this rubber numb thing I have going on. That is my only concern with the insane hiking practices, the potential injury to the athletic sailor and my side job is to help athletic sailors stay injury free and sail till their dying day sort of thing . .


jwlord@MAC.COM
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Feb 6, 2006, 7:53 PM

Post #52 of 73 (84803 views)
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Do the folks over at the ISTA think about changing the rules because of the recurring bouts of tennis elbow? Restrict hiking off the shrouds of a J22, but not an individuals effort for the team.
jessica winslow lord


DwightB
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Feb 6, 2006, 11:05 PM

Post #53 of 73 (84798 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Hiking should not be restricted in the M24 class beyond current limitations.

Having raced as the middle crew in the Melges 24 class in SF Bay, Santa Cruz, Ca, Key West, Fl and other windy venues, I am amused at the "question" posed. By design, this "dinghy" must be sailed flat or you will go sideways due to the high aspect design of the keel. There can be no arguement whether to hike or not. If you want to go upwind efficiently in a breeze and with a significant chop and/or waves, you better get out. It is not an option on these boats to swing your legs inwards with your back against a life line.

In Key West this year, we had great breezes that put a premium on boat handling. Like always, if you make a mistake, there are usually a handful of boats that will pass you before you can correct the error. Through the regatta we hiked really hard and I came home bruised and tired.

We are 100% amateur (two of us are in our 50s and two in our late 30s) and work out in the gym and cycle regularly. I know full well that we are competing with guys who were not born when I was racing 505s and the like on the West Coast in the 70's. I have raced everything from Finns and Stars to SC 70s and other IOR/IMS/PHRF and none of these boats are as much fun to sail nor as competitive (except Stars) a class as this is.

We know, in advance, that if we are not physically and mentally prepared to sail hard, our effort over a 9 race regatta will be tough and discouraging. In our case, we were 12th overall and 1st Corinthian. Absent several amateur boathandling mistakes, we would have avoided a couple finishes in the teens. As in any competition, you just have to be ready for what mother nature brings and prepare completely. When it blows, this is a tricky boat to sail well.

Photo courtesy of Tim Wilkes Photography.



Attachments: Hanging off a M24.jpg (16.2 KB)


The Publisher
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Feb 7, 2006, 5:58 AM

Post #54 of 73 (84780 views)
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Re: [DwightB] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Nice post. Got me to thinking if any hiking pants/pads were online, so I did some googling and found these "diapers" being sold by Doyle Detroit:



This guy seems pretty happy about being the Doyle diaper model. I guess Parker Shinn wasn't available.

- Craig Leweck, Scuttlebutt


SailTrim
*****

Feb 7, 2006, 6:06 AM

Post #55 of 73 (84777 views)
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Nice ~ maybe I should invest into some of those . . . are they for real?


The Publisher
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Feb 7, 2006, 9:03 AM

Post #56 of 73 (84761 views)
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Plenty real. Here is the link: http://www.doylesails.com/detroit-melges24.htm

Also, here is a thread with a couple other sources: http://sailingscuttlebutt.com/...m.cgi?post=1952#1952

- Craig Leweck, Scuttlebutt


SailTrim
*****

Feb 7, 2006, 9:35 AM

Post #57 of 73 (84753 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Thank you ~ I am familiar with the jackets, but I find when hiking hard, it is around the pelvic bone that needs help. The diaper looks good, but as my concern with the jacket, it is at the point the hip and torso flex that is most vulnerable to a good hiking form. There are some important anatomical components in the circulation and nerve systems that don't have great protection from the life line even on a muscular person. So my experience may not be from a M24, but I race on boats that do require serious non-pansy hiking and it is important to protect yourself for overal performance on the boat. Someone can train to be limber and flexible to maintain the nececssary hike for this boat, but a thin tension point across the lower abdoman for long periods of time is not good.


telemark
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Feb 7, 2006, 11:25 AM

Post #58 of 73 (84748 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

  
The Melges 24 put on an awesome display in big air at the recent Key West Race Week. The boat's speed and seaworthiness were quite evident, while many problems existed in other classes. Also evident in the Melges class was the speed gap between the top boats and those in the back of the fleet. Some recommend measures designed to slow the lead boats down a bit, while it may be healthier to help those in the back of the fleet improve their speed. In many cases, those in the back need just a few pointers to have a steadier sail and shave minutes off each leg. Still, with subtle refinements to the rules we could improve the hiking comfort, and with it raise the general level of enjoyment for all on those long heavy-air beats.

After spending a week at beam max with what seemed like the weight of the entire crew bearing down on my "lap", I think we should raise the lifeline to be about 75mm off the deck while loaded at mid-span. That amount would make it more comfortable for the middle person, without dramatically reducing stability of the crew. Shortening the lifeline any more could have the adverse effect of pulling the crew backwards and in, while sailing through big waves or puffs.

Hiking has long been a key component to racing in most classes with our without lifelines. Many interesting and painful techniques were displayed at the recent Etchell 22 Worlds, at the front and back of the fleet. Pain was also around in the old J/24 days, where people would occasionally require medical treatment after loosing feeling in their legs from giving it "their all" against the bare wire. To address this most pressing health issue, padding the lifelines and clothing is encouraged and practiced by the Melges 24 class. At the recent 20-knot Key West Race Week, our boat was fully equipped with cushy lifelines and close-fitting pads for our hips. Everyone on the boat was quite happy with the effect, which also left no bruising on the hips to have to explain when we returned home.

Raising the lifeline 75mm and adding padding should level the playing field a bit in the breeze, but there will always be a separation between the front and the back of the fleet in both heavy and light air. Most of this can be attributed to the basic sailing skills of skipper and crew, but some of it comes from hard work. On most boats the crew trains off-season at least a little bit, so that on race day they can perform without discomfort. Many of the boats in the back of the fleet are still refining their sailing techniques and training methods. Some may not have crews that resemble the US Ski Team but they may do well to put a little more effort into preparing for this sport, which will always be physical even if we turn around and face inward.


rigmaster
*

Feb 7, 2006, 6:17 PM

Post #59 of 73 (84737 views)
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Re: [The Publisher] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I'm a non paid Melges 24 sailor and the physical ability and mental determination to hike hard is part of the game. If you don't like it, it seems to me it is not the boat for you. With all of the very extensive pro campaigns in whatever class it is, one will be able to find something they don't think is fair or would be better if changed. How do you please everyone? The class rules have a limit for the hiking line and it seems to me to be just fine. Compete against the corinthians and have fun.


sail59115
*


Feb 8, 2006, 10:01 AM

Post #60 of 73 (84710 views)
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I'm not a Melges owner but a few years ago we went into the last race of a PHRF regatta with finishes identical to that of a Melges. Whoever won the last race won the regatta.

We came off the start line side by side and, two minutes later, watched three of their crew drop into the water.

I like the loose hiking line rule and vote not to change anything.

Charlie Clifton
Sarasota, FL


SW Sailor
**

Feb 8, 2006, 10:46 AM

Post #61 of 73 (84703 views)
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In Reply To
If hiking is an issue, do the owners vote?Is there a way to check
lifeline tension before and after a race?What is the weight limit and is there a weigh in required? I guess there is no rule on pro drivers either?If everyone agrees on these rules then you either agree or dont race.If the pros are allowed then its a great opp.for the amatuer sailor to see how they stack up against,and you will always improve and learn from the best!



Napoleon
*


Feb 8, 2006, 3:19 PM

Post #62 of 73 (84688 views)
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Re: [IMCA] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I for one hope they make the change to tighten the hiking lines.

Leverage = Speed?

I'm going out and recruiting new crew with abnormally large heads. Corner the market before all the other M24 owners get wise.



HEAD ***** HIKE ****** NOW!



Paul Hulsey
Hoodlum
USA 615
Attachments: Big Head.gif (11.0 KB)


Snappy
***


Feb 10, 2006, 10:14 AM

Post #63 of 73 (84645 views)
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Pretty cool to see this thread getting play on the Melges 24 class website, along with other sailing sites. I am thinking that the class is taking a long look at this hiking deal.


Surfer
***


Feb 11, 2006, 8:03 AM

Post #64 of 73 (84633 views)
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Well, if the class is required to tighten the hiking lines then
why not go to the next logical step and make all crew members
sit with their feet in the cockpit, ala the J100?

Personally I'd like to see the class go the other direction and
consider traps on the 24. But any restrictions to effective hiking
for me would be most disappointing.

I live and sail on a windy part of the west coast usa. One of the boats
I race on is a Sydney Harbor 38. Our lifelines are as loose as possible
and most of the crew likes it that way. Of course the driver likes that the most...

...either way, hiking hard is a fundamental requirement for high end racing
so please...let us hike effectively.

-Surfer


dierk
*

Feb 15, 2006, 7:38 AM

Post #65 of 73 (84582 views)
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I come from the standard hiking world and have been in key west several times. This past year I did the Gold Cup and Key West in Melges 24.

All these keelboats at the top level seem to require extreme hiking.. Whether Farr 40, Mum or J105.. The Melges is more extreme. But all these boats i have had the same brutal midsection bruises. At least on the Melges the crews are getting sophisticated enough to utilize some padding.

The Melges is not a recreational (weekender team) racing boat when you have 30 knots and 5 foot waves like we had in key west a few days. No amount of changes to the hiking rule is really going to help.. it is a very tender boat and you need weight on the rail to make it go.

I think you need to raise the crew weight minimum and tighten the lifeline a bit. How about giving the crews a vote.. Skippers never hike and don't really know what we are talking about. I kept offering to switch in key west with our skipper.. he never took me up.


SailTrim
*****

Feb 15, 2006, 7:44 AM

Post #66 of 73 (84581 views)
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Any recent word on where the class association is on all this chatter?


IMCA
*

Feb 15, 2006, 11:30 AM

Post #67 of 73 (84572 views)
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The International Melges 24 Class Technical Committee is closely monitoring the current correspondence relating to hiking lines and hiking aids. The next opportunity to consider a change to class rules is the IMCA World Council AGM which will take place in August 2006. The World Council is made up of representatives from each of the Melges 24 National Class Associations.

National Melges 24 Class Associations must submit proposals for rule changes no later than 60 days prior to the AGM. All rule change proposals will then be reviewed by the IMCA Technical Committee in preparation for consideration and voting at AGM.

Sailors who wish to see a change to the rules should immediately commence lobbying their National Class Officers/Technical Committees (see www.melges24.com/contact.asp?mode=nationalclassdir for contact details) to request that they make a formal rule change submission (please note that rule change submissions must go through a National Class Association and cannot be accepted from individuals).

Copies of the IMCA Class Rules & Constitution are available from http://www.melges24.com/rules.asp.

Fiona Brown
IMCA Administrator


Tommy Clough
*

Feb 21, 2006, 10:42 AM

Post #68 of 73 (84496 views)
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MELGES 457
SAMURAI

Well, here is my two cents from "the back of the pack". I have been racing on the Melges for 4 years now and gettting my butt waxed for most of them. First 2 years was as crew and the last 2 years as an owner/driver. Both sides make valid points (opinions made by Melges sailors, that is) and is easy to sway one way or the other. The first question however is , "How do we grow the class"? Next, "As a result of loose or tight life lines, will members be added"? I agree with someone who said that "what makes and supports this class, is the people in the back of the pack". The pro's don't, they are hired guns bouncing from class to class. I crewed at the worlds this year and I can tell you, everyone hiked. Maybe not as hard as some others. Getting spit out the back was not a result of hiking though, it was a result of being out sailed. Some complain that the pro's are hiking harder and that is why they were out front. THERE PRO'S!! This is what they do for a living and they make boats go fast. This is an easy but complex boat to sail. Yes, hiking helps tremendously, yes, hiking hurts. Try hanging on a line for 2 miles at a time on any sailboat with or without hiking belts. But as such, hiking is just one aspect of competitive sailing. There is also tactics, starts, rig tension, sail tension, boat prep, and on and on and on. I tried one of the hiking pads and guess what, it still hurts. Not as much though and I could stay on the life line longer. But instead of trying to shorten the lifelines, why don't we pass a rule that states that no hiking aparatus is allowed. Then, if your crew wants to hike there butt off, more power to ya. This will also alleviate another expense that the crew or owner will have to afford to "be competitive". The reason I joined this fleet is so I can learn from the best. If we all love racing, why not try to be the best we can. I have been able to approach any pro or member of this fleet with questions and have come out with a better knowledge of not only the boat, but sailing in general. Do I enjoy getting spanked at every regatta. No. I am like most, hate to lose, love to win. LEAVE THE LIFELINES ALONE!!! Get rid of the hiking belts. Oh yeah, one more thing, if your lifelines are breaking cause of hiking, blame your skipper for not taking care of his AMSTEEL lines.


MonkeyButt
*

Feb 27, 2006, 8:03 PM

Post #69 of 73 (84452 views)
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Vastly amusing thread. The idea of sailors voting not to hike makes me smile.

Lots of M24s had thier hands full at this (and other) KWRW. This year 10% of the fleet broke masts. It's a littlle boat on big water. When you race M24 you race against the best in the world. Slowing the front of the fleet won't make me "feel better."

I checked our hiking lines for chafe every day. We put up a new backstay. KW will expose your weak links. M24 will expose you to the world of "no limits" racing. It's not for everyone.


gbr337
**

Feb 28, 2006, 9:50 AM

Post #70 of 73 (84433 views)
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IMCA - please dont destroy the class!

The boat is obvioulsly OK as it is, if people cant keep up with the top guys get a younger fitter crew or move out of the class.

We just purchased our boat in October and cant wait to start racing it hard this season, we bought the boat because it is hard work, it is thrilling, it's demanding and thats exactly what we want, we are a young team with an average age of 21 - where else would we get the chance to race such a fun boat against some of the best sailors in the world. The 2nd hand market for the boat is ideal for younger teams to get into the class, the last thing young people want to be is bored and they will if the hiking rules change!

As for trapezes, well - its been done and what class can people honestly say is as popular(keelboat/sportsboat) as the 24?

Also would people not consider trapezing as more dangerous? I know i would, even with the new quick release harnesses, that 11 year old kid that was sailing with Spithill, if you were his father/mother would you let him on a trapezing sportsboat in a decent breeze.

Sitting facing in - - bloody stupid idea that, first of all the foot rests arent big enough to handle the extra heel the boat would have due to the weight coming off the rail!

The only possible compromise id be ok with - if anything had to be done at all - would be for the lines to be tightened slightly - say a 4" or 6" gap when the middle section is pulled down.

The belts/nappies people are on about arent a major concern for me either - if thats what it takes to be comfy id wear one, whether that means a diy home made piece of sponge or pro made device. Should we stop people wearing gloves because it means that sailors can get extra purchase on sheets, you use a tool for the job.

Ok rant over.


WillieT
***


Mar 1, 2006, 5:56 AM

Post #71 of 73 (84422 views)
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Re: [gbr337] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From 'butt today (Issue 2041), I understand how the M24 class wants feedback on this issue on their forum, where the odds are better that the respondants are class members. However, their forum has zero traffic, so unless they do a direct mail ballot to class members, they aint going to hear how their members feel.

It is funny how folks against the hiking ban forget that this class has been popular for a long time, well before the intro of hard hiking. The hiking aids are a new product to combat against the numbness and pain that result from hiking. By tightening the hiking line slightly, you will raise the point that the line grinds into your body, and sufficiently limit the amount that you can lean over. My guess is that the result will bring the amount of hiking back within the range of the bulk of the class, yet still allow those athletically inclined folks to still feel like they are "doing there thing."

When guys like Dave Ullman, who has become the king of heavy air and can afford the best hikers, feels that something needs to be done to limit the hiking... THEN WE SHOULD LISTEN. He has been in the class from the beginning, unlike many of the posers who care to comment. He has seen the change in the M24 class, has been involved in every OD known to man, and he is a good guy that can see the big picture.

Melges 24 class.... please don't table this issue!!


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Dreaming of the BVI...


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May 16, 2006, 5:04 AM

Post #72 of 73 (83567 views)
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Re: [WillieT] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I must admit that this suprised me, mostly because of the degree of change proposed, but I have talked to too many people that felt that something had to be done for the overall health of the class:

HIKING THE MELGES - THE SITUATION DEVELOPS - May 2006

15 May 2006 - The discussion about the style of hiking that has developed in the class has been ongoing both publicly and within the class. The Executive Committee has decided to lead the resolution of the discussions. It is intended to put forward for consideration a proposal to tighten the hiking lines following the feedback from Harry Melges after sailing in Santa Cruz. He tried the boat with taut hiking lines:

“We had two boats and we tightened the hiking lines so they were completely tight.

It was unanimous that everyone that sailed on either boat thought it was great. We had girls and guys sailing and everyone thought it was much better than hiking over the lines when they are loose.

With the tight lines you just press into them, you keep your butt on the deck and it is much more comfortable and civilized.”


Although the wording has not yet been finalized, the Executive Committee is intending to propose a rule change for consideration and voting at the AGM in August in Hyères. At present it is envisaged the new rule will cover:

• The lines will be tight.
• The crews’ body position will be tightly controlled.
• The feet when sitting on the side must not promote standing on the gunwale.
• The crew may not use the lines to propel the body away from or off the boat.

The Executive Committee is of course looking for more feedback and urges the National Class Associations to prepare themselves for the AGM. It is hoped others will try out ideas and hold trials to gather information. This will ensure that the rule, if it is voted through at the AGM, will be one which the class can adopt without problems.


David Chivers
IMCA Technical Advisor
May 11th 2006


Link:
http://www.melges24.com/...ear=2006&id=1001





melges419
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May 16, 2006, 6:39 AM

Post #73 of 73 (83563 views)
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Re: [WillieT] Poll: Should the Melges 24 class restrict hiking? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

not sure where this came from but hope it is true. i still feel the hiking devices are illegal and it hurt our boat greatly at the worlds not using them. if this is true it should even out the fleet some. the skill will be the ultimate decision maker on the course instead of equipment/weight on the rail. Smile
Sail Often and have fun


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