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Forum Index: DISCUSSION: Dock Talk:
Unbelievable Bertarelli
Team McLube

 

 


peterbrown77
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Feb 17, 2010, 2:48 PM

Post #1 of 26 (17181 views)
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Headline from the Taiwan News:

"Bertarelli: Wary of new America's Cup rules-maker"

"America's Cup loser Alinghi doubts whether the new Rome-based Challenger of Record will act independently of new U.S. cup-holder BMW Oracle Racing."

Yes, good old Ernesto - always concerned about the independence of the COR.


waiknot
****

Feb 17, 2010, 3:34 PM

Post #2 of 26 (17174 views)
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Well there are two possible reasons that I can see for Ernesto expressing this.

1)
He is measuring BOR and their club using his own low standards, and can't comprehend others might actually have higher expectations of themselves then he does.

2)
He is preparing to bow out of the America's Cup and wishes to blame the American's


Mal
****

Feb 17, 2010, 4:39 PM

Post #3 of 26 (17166 views)
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Good grief! The Deed of Gift is rather specific that the challenger and defender will not act independently.

"The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may, by mutual consent, make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match, in which case also the ten months' notice may be waived."

Suspicions confirmed again. No wonder 33 was such a legal mess. I wonder if Ernesto even read the DoG..... The fact that Bartarelli ignored that statement and:

"Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty, or other executive department, having for its annual regatta on ocean water course ........
"

is why the Cup was so perverted this time around and reverted back to most of the specific criteria of the DoG. Pitiful!

I certainly hope they don't try to act independently this time.
Check Six .......Mal




EaglesPDX
***

Feb 17, 2010, 5:09 PM

Post #4 of 26 (17161 views)
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Bertarlli's days of getting to do Putin imitations are over.

I don't think the AC community really cares what Bertarelli thinks at this point. All are relieved that Ellison and Coutts won and the AC management is in good hands. Bruno Trouble dancing on the dock as USA-17 won the Cup back was a sign.

Bennet's story of the SNG trying to hijack the last race by refusing to operate the signal flags was the last straw for the racing community.


The Publisher
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Feb 17, 2010, 5:38 PM

Post #5 of 26 (17157 views)
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Scuttlebutt 3031

WHEN THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT
In an interview on Tuesday, Ernesto Bertarelli, president of Alinghi, said he was waiting to learn of the format for the 34th America’s Cup before he determines whether he will participate. He also stated how the Challenger of Record for the 34th America’s Cup (Mascalzone Latino) “must speak for all the other possible challengers and not just be a mouthpiece for the Defender.”

For the astute observer, these are curious comments by Bertarelli. Recent history shows that the Alinghi team manufactured a Challenger of Record (Club Nautico Español de Vela) after winning the 32nd America’s Cup in 2007 so as to carry out their much maligned vision for the 33rd Match. And then there was the time in 2008 when the Alinghi team had revised the Protocol, began organizing the event, but would only show the BMW Oracle team the new rules after they dropped their lawsuits and entered the event.

So now, with Bertarelli on the outside looking in, he wants a Challenger of Record to help negotiate fair rules, and he would like to see those rules before he commits to the event. Seems like a pretty logical concept… too bad he didn’t think of it over 30 months ago. -- Craig Leweck, Scuttlebutt (with quote from Valencia Life Network).


Mikie
*

Feb 18, 2010, 9:39 AM

Post #6 of 26 (16921 views)
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I think the best thing that could happen is that the sailing community and media ignore EB. If he has no audience, then he is alone in the pulpit.

I was shocked at the bitterness and excuses in the press conferences.

I guess I should have known / seen the signs. When Alinghi lost that one race to TNZ and post race he criticized the race committee for running a race in those conditions, so unfair. That is from 32 and we all should have seen the writing.

Unfortunately, he has had a charmed life and does not have to experience disappointment often - a very Tiger Woods type of personality - Scary

Truly I think ignoring him is the best solution for him to discover a new hobby, which will allow all of us who love the sport to move on and enjoy what we have. No attention, no attraction.

mikie


ill wind
*

Feb 18, 2010, 10:37 AM

Post #7 of 26 (16903 views)
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ignoring EB is the mature solution.

But how many chances do i get to pee on a billionaire ?

he asked for it, let's give it to him starting with a rule 69 hearing for his implied RC strike in race !


Mal
****

Feb 18, 2010, 11:30 AM

Post #8 of 26 (16892 views)
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I would have liked to be a fly on the wall when, no doubt, some cooler head talked EB into dropping the red flag protest he threw when USA 17 started catching him in race 2. It was obviously sour grapes or he wouldn't have dropped it.

Speaking of which; has it leaked out yet what the protest was all about? Was it just about those scab judges that violated the SNG picket line, broke the strike and started the race?

I just watched race 2 for the third time and am even more convinced Butterworth should have attempted a lee bow at the layline on leg 1. Luffed up, room at the mark, canceling penalty ...... no guts no glory. That on Monday morning from one who once tried a big separation in a Hobie 16 race and finished with the rest of the fleet either on the beach or on their trailers; my 2 cents is worth about that......
Check Six .......Mal




waiknot
****

Feb 20, 2010, 1:20 AM

Post #9 of 26 (16789 views)
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I assume no word yet on EB's reason for the protest and then withdrawal, guess we will never know.


EaglesPDX
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Feb 20, 2010, 5:08 AM

Post #10 of 26 (16781 views)
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Butterworth addressed the protest flag in the last race at the press conference. Alinghi felt that the spectator fleet was not cleared and impeded Alinghi maneuvering at the start of the race which lead to Alinghi's penalty. Had the race come down to the penalty turn, Alinghi would have protested that the penalty was not valid.


Mal
****

Feb 21, 2010, 8:11 AM

Post #11 of 26 (16750 views)
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I think I hear the worlds smallest violin ............... playing taps
Check Six .......Mal


The Publisher
*****


Mar 18, 2010, 2:28 PM

Post #12 of 26 (15799 views)
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In Scuttlebutt 3048

THE CUP’S CORPORATE DEFENDER
Bruno Trouble, yachting impresario, public relations genius and promoter of the world's most famous luggage, makes no secret of his hostility towards Swiss billionaire Ernesto Bertarelli. "I don't like him at all, Bertarelli," he says. "We have huge fight over the last two years. He has no respect for the America's Cup legend. He's just considering it is professional sport and a good way to make money."

For Trouble, this yachting is not mere competition. Since 1983 he has masterminded one of the most enduring partnerships between sport and sponsor. It succeeds, he says, because the wealthy people who raced America's Cup yachts a century ago were clients of Louis Vuitton – and the same is true today. "We are not supporting a sport. We love the tradition."

Hence his issues with Bertarelli. Louis Vuitton has invested a great deal in its association with the America's Cup – an association that would have much less value if the Cup turned into just another regatta, a waterborne version of Formula 1. The irony of a corporate sponsor sheltering a sporting event from commercial exploitation is not lost on Trouble. But in the luxury world, heritage and pedigree are worth more than anything Bertarelli can come up with. "For luxury products, image is everything. It's not the price."

Indeed, Trouble feigns ignorance of how much Louis Vuitton spends on sponsorship. "To tell you whether it's 2% or 5% of the gross, or more, I don't know. We don't care. It's all about relationships and global thinking. Everyone ask why we invest in New Zealand, but we see the world picture," says Trouble.

For all his apparent nonchalance with money, Trouble knows exactly why sponsorship is a good strategy and how much it's worth. "For luxury brands you're limited in terms of advertising," he says. And buying space in mass media is a waste of money – "you don't kill a moth with a bazooka" – so brand image is built through public relations. -- The Timaru Herald, full story: http://tinyurl.com/ykf99ef



The Publisher
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Mar 18, 2010, 2:29 PM

Post #13 of 26 (15797 views)
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Scuttlebutt 3050

From David Tabor:
Bruno Trouble is exactly right. It is all about tradition and image. Thirty years ago I had no idea what or who Louis Vuitton was, but I knew the LV Cup was what the challengers raced for to reach the America's Cup. Talk about branding. Of course I am a bit worldlier now even though my wardrobe isn't. (My foulies still outnumber the suits in my closet!) The perversity of AC33 is that Bertarelli's trashing of the AC "brand" may have left us salivating for a return to "tradition" and the purity (?) of the sport; in effect saving it from itself and the likes of his ilk. Hopefully Mr. Ellison will deliver an AC34 that sets the standard for the Cup for many years.




The Publisher
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Mar 18, 2010, 2:30 PM

Post #14 of 26 (15795 views)
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Scuttlebutt 3051

From Andrew Hurst, Editor, Seahorse International Sailing Magazine:
Valued resource though it has been, it is time for Scuttlebutt to take a hard look at itself over its continued need to keep publishing tedious Alinghi-bashing rants (in Scuttlebutt 3050) from North American readers who I for one have never heard of.

Remember, it takes two to make a pub brawl. Alinghi made mistakes, mostly rushing out a silly protocol in 2007. But so did BMW Oracle, not least running the two most expensive America's Cup campaigns of all time yet failing on either occasion to reach the finals.

Please can we now move on before I award Scuttlebutt Junk-Filter status.

BMW Oracle now have what they always wanted, the America's Cup, and we all wish them the very best to deliver on the high ideals they have promised. If Russell, Larry and Co. can run a Cup as well as they can execute and manage a giant wing rig, the event is in very safe hands!

Alinghi, meanwhile won two of the toughest America's Cup Matches ever conducted, in near-identical boats and delivered in 2007 perhaps the best Cup event the world has ever seen.

Both teams now deserve respect for their achievements.

As for the armchair snipers who have never put themselves on the line at this level of competition, kindly return whence you came.






The Publisher
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Mar 18, 2010, 2:32 PM

Post #15 of 26 (15793 views)
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Scuttlebutt 3052


From R. Casey Schnoor, Armchair Sniper:
The decision to publish or not your so called “Alinghi-bashing” rants is up to the Curmudgeon, or any other publication.

However, in my opinion, whether you personally have heard of the bash authors or not is completely irrelevant, and I find your position to be very condescending. AS the Editor of Seahorse, do you have the same opinion regarding the readers of and letter writers to your publication? Are their opinions only relevant if you happen to know their names? … or agree with their positions?

Further to your argument, I believe that whatever BMW Oracle or Alinghi did in AC32 or before the publishing of the AC33 Protocol can live on their own merits, good or bad, to be respected or not. Those efforts are not particularly relevant to the current discussion. What is extremely relevant is what Alinghi and Mr. Bertarelli commenced with that Protocol and the subsequent mismanagement and their disgraceful arguments to justify their flawed positions, all at the expense of the sailing community. This is the issue at hand and the focus of and reason for the well earned “Alinghi-bashing”.

Mr. Hurst, I am confident you don’t know my name, I have never personally participated in an America’s Cup race, I live in North America and I am a long time competitive sailor. But regardless of my personal sailing resume, my knowledge of the history of the America’s Cup or which continent I live on, I believe that as a sailor, I deserve to have an opinion and if I so choose, a voice regarding the stewardship of the America’s Cup. And so do all of the other voices that have been raised albeit mostly in protest of Mr. Bertarelli. As such, I applaud Scuttlebutt and all of the other publications that are keeping this discussion alive. Hopefully it will help to discourage the Mr. Bertarelli’s of the future.

So Mr. Hurst. To date, I have been quite comfortable in my armchair reading the comments and articles about Mr. Bertarelli and his foiled attempt to shanghai and despoil the America’s Cup, it’s tradition and it’s prestige. Further, I have been very happy to read about the evidence coming forth that further supports those criticisms of Mr. Bertarelli’s stewardship of the Cup. But now, more importantly, it was your Euro whining (you picked the continental fight) about the “bashing” and your back door support of Mr. Bertarelli that rose me for the first time from my armchair to my keyboard for this “rant”. And, because of you, I have no intent to “return whence I came”. Sadly, the motivation to do so came from my displeasure with the editor of a prestigious publication I have long respected and appreciated.

My sincere hope is that Mr. Bertarelli, Brad and the boys move on to Formula One car racing and the coverage of their exploits are limited solely to Seahorse.



From Bennet Greenwald:
As a confirmed Alinghi basher, and as one who used to subscribe to Andrew Hurst’s magazine, I am accustomed to his mad cheerleading for any weird thing as long as it is done by, or in the name of, lots of paid sailors. Nonetheless, I apologize to Hurst since those unwashed by his marvelous light must never, never have an opinion. What follows are humble suggestions about thinking before writing.

It may be useful to remember that the Black Magic and the first Alinghi wins were first executed by one Coutts who put certain protocols in place. The same fellow also engineered the BMW Oracle win after Ernesto (he must be a genius - he’s rich) fired Coutts. It may also be useful to remember that Alinghi tried to stack the deck - got caught - got continuously smacked by the courts and then on the water by a team led by that same Coutts. Might indicate something about Alinghi’s thought process, and management skills, as well as about Coutts.

Finally, as one who occasionally gets on the line with a bunch of no account unknowns, I would also opine that the event was sailboat racing. Until the professionals show us some magic answers, it is still just time on the water and, at some marks, even an amateur will be ahead - that is unless you are Ernesto trying to hang on to the cat. That’s why we do it, and why we watch it Andrew.


From Hugo van Kretschmar, Sydney, Australia:
Good on you Andrew Hurst for reminding the “good ole USA” that the rest of the world may not always see things quite the way they do. Some of us on the other sides of the world remain skeptical (but ever hopeful) that Larry Ellison & Co will actually practice what they have preached.







Mal
****

Mar 18, 2010, 8:33 PM

Post #16 of 26 (15751 views)
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Thank you Mr Casey .... well put.

Mr Hurst; I heartily disagree that it takes two to make a brawl. All it takes is one unreasonable party. Of course there is no brawl if the other party tucks his tail between his legs and skulks off or doesn't have the money or the cahonies to stand up for what's right and fair. Mr Bertarelli has intimated that the New York courts are responsible for his loss and the America's Cup competition is somehow one sided simply because it is the America's Cup. Even a cursory glance at the Deed of Gift and the court documents tells another story all together. Look for yourself, sir. Even the most biased Eurofan with the least of a head on his shoulders will recognize from whence this mess came. Denying or even ignoring that is what can allow a repeat of the debacle that ran up to AC 33.

Incidentally; you haven't heard of me either. I'm not sure what difference that may make but you darn sure have now heard from me; another armchair sniper.
Check Six .......Mal




adrianmorgan
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Mar 19, 2010, 3:23 AM

Post #17 of 26 (15705 views)
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I am right behind Andrew in seeing an ugly side to the American response to Alinghi's defeat. Americans should be justifiably proud of Oracle's victory - notwithstanding that the sword of justice wielded by the prince of probity's (mainly) Kiwi minions cost more than the UK budget deficit. But hey, we beat the dastardly cheese makers. America rules the waves; the Cup comes home. All is right with the world. Welcome back the overpriced luggage-makers. The glorious, honest, noble traditions of the Cup have been preserved. Raise the flag. Hurrah!

Ernesto (unwisely perhaps) took on the might of Rome and its legal system and lost. He did however have the nerve to steer himself so that no-one else should take the rap for failure. That takes huge courage, for it was clear once the wing was unveiled who would come out ahead, no matter who held the wheel.

And talking of sport, I detected in every word Ernesto said a real joy in the pure thrill of sailing his elegant boat, which will no doubt live again on Lake Geneva. As for the Wing: does the Smithsonian have a hall large enough for this expensive, impractical albeit beautiful weapon?


Mal
****

Mar 19, 2010, 5:38 AM

Post #18 of 26 (15674 views)
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I don't believe Alinghi's defeat has anything to do with with the ugly side you rightly percieve. Normally sour grapes come from the looser; a good indication this indignation is not just sour grapes. With me, at least, the ugly side would have been even uglier if Alinghie had won and in doing so retained control over the Cup. That control gained through worse than questionable means. Actually what is the real shame is that if Bertarelli had been successful in Shanghaing control of the Cup by challenging himself and thus being both challenger and defender; regular Joes such as myself likely would never have known how ridiculous the whole thing was. Until the big boats were actually sailing; I really didn't understand the situation. It was only my interest in the Mercury Bay challenge and the fact that a cat was involved that piqued my interest and subsequent investigation. Read the Deed; it's short and simple. Read the court documents; they are long and complex but interesting and enlightening.

As to Bertarellie's every word; though you obviously didn't listen to a good many of them, I agree, his love of the sport was obvious. His boat is undoubtedly one of the most beautiful ever built and just watching it sail on my little screen was a thrill for me. With a little less rocker; it might be the most beautiful ever built. As to his "huge courage" in sailing the boat himself; I'm not so sure his motives are as altruistic as you imply. The difference between whom we think a hero and whom we think a fool is often the result of the act; but I still admire his efforts.

While your whole Prince, minions, Rome and it's legal system; raise the flag hurrah thing is patently offensive to me; I can accept it as rightful retribution for my Eurofan comment. However, America doesn't rule the waves, the Cup's home, despite it's name is Europe and I have a great fondness for Swiss cheese.
Check Six .......Mal




jimc
**

Mar 19, 2010, 10:09 AM

Post #19 of 26 (15612 views)
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Whatever you may think of the Alinghi shenanigans, there is something gloriously ironic about seeing Americans complaining about someone gaming the rules in an attempt to keep the America's Cup...


The Publisher
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Mar 21, 2010, 12:21 PM

Post #20 of 26 (15284 views)
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From Robert Vaughan:
Dear Andrew, of all persons in the world of sailing I'd have thought you'd have figured out by now that Mr. Ellison & Co have done a huge favor to any and all future challengers to AC events. There's no way that your country, or any others, would have any chance of improving on your record, (maybe 10 or so unsuccessful challenges with budgets sometimes equivalent to BMW's when adjusted for inflation and the length of the challenger series) had Berterelli's gang been left to control the event in the manner they proposed. Maybe your editorials should be directed at respectfully representing the fine club to which your publication was originally intended to serve. And Hugo, Bally hypocritical as I see it.


The Publisher
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Mar 21, 2010, 12:21 PM

Post #21 of 26 (15283 views)
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From Eddie Howells:
Andrew Hurst's (Seahorse magazine editor) letter to Scuttlebutt (#3051) seemed familiar to me. I was thinking of writing a similar note to Seahorse. As a subscriber to the magazine, I have suffered their pro Alinghi editorial bias for the last couple of years. At times it was like reading the Alinghi "talking points". I hoped that this would end with Alinghi's defeat and SNG's disgraceful pattern of management/behavior, but apparently Mr. Hurst can't let go. His letter objects to the ‘Alinghi bashing’ and then he goes on to insult BMWO and diminish their victory. This skillful request for detente was nuanced with a sanctimonious tone that I'm sure was appreciated by all the Scuttlebutt readers. I'm not sure I am looking forward to my next issue of Seahorse if more of this is what I can expect.




The Publisher
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Mar 21, 2010, 12:22 PM

Post #22 of 26 (15281 views)
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From Julian Everitt, past Editor of Seahorse International Sailing Magazine, designer and spectator at the 33rd America Cup:

It's easy to blame armchair pundits and dispatch them back to where they came, as suggested by Seahorse Editor Andrew Hurst (Scuttlebutt 3051), but the brutal fact is that the Alinghi 33rd America's Cup defence was a disaster - easily on the scale of Sceptre in 1958 and Sovereign in 1964. Events that condemned designer David Boyd to ridicule and the British sailmaking, mast making and fitting making industry to the scrap heap for years afterwards.

We can applaud Alinghi for trying, but they failed technologically in a spectacular way and ironically enough, on the sailing front as well. True boat speed makes tactical geniuses out of all of us, but hey, that's life and Alinghi simply went the way of other infamous America's Cup losers - deficiency in all departments.

They had their chances too. As defenders they knew exactly what Oracle would throw at them. They had the same freedoms that Dennis Conner had when the New Zealanders threw the last Deed of Gift Challenge in 1988. There was nothing in the rules to stop him building his catamarans to defend against the gigantic Kiwi threat. It just needed imagination and lateral thinking.

Bertarelli and his technicians could have built a multihull 115ft on the waterline instead of 90ft, by simply adopting a token two masted configuration. They could have stretched the overall length to 130ft. Features that would have imbued them with more speed and critically more power. They could even have stuck to their catamaran configuration, but they spent too much time and energy on trying to avoid competing against Oracle on the water, instead of creating a sailing vessel that could compete in anything but the most benign conditions.

But perhaps their biggest mistake was not looking in the history books. Conner's cat defence was 22 years ago. The wing was king then. How can you miss a clue that big?

No, Alinghi was a technological disaster, right up there with the British fleet in 1851 and the challengers of 1958 and 1964. But uniquely, Alinghi was also the most comprehensively annihilated Defender in Cup history.


The Publisher
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Mar 21, 2010, 12:23 PM

Post #23 of 26 (15280 views)
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From John Harwood-Bee:
Oh dear. Who has rattled Andrew Hurst’s cage? (Scutt 3051) and how naïve of him to criticize, and I quote, “North American readers who I for one have never heard of”. As his magazine only has a North American circulation of approximately 2500 copies and at a push a readership of 5 to 6 thousand, I doubt that many of the hundreds of thousands if not millions of US sailors have heard of him either. Why his never having heard of them should have him preclude them from comment on the America Cup debacle is crass arrogance.

In addition his comparison with a pub fight is interesting. To state it takes two to start a brawl is nonsense. It only takes one highly intoxicated individual, whether fuelled by alcohol, drugs or power. Back him up with a bunch of sycophants and you have the makings of full scale takeover. It then takes a strong and determined person to stand up to a bully and face him down. You may not like that person but at least he must be respected for refusing to turn away and let the bully boys rule unchallenged.

And again, what relevance has the 32nd cup to what has happened since. Yes, well done Alinghi for staging a superb event but zero credit for then singlehandedly destroying the franchise that had been created. And what BMW Oracle spent is irrelevant and certainly not a mistake. Stick to the facts and to the point. From the very minute that they won the 32nd cup Alinghi’s behaviour has been astounding.

A ludicrous protocol, a spurious Challenger of Record, a questionable deal with ISAF and then the disgraceful behaviour at the start of the last race can hardly be written of as ‘silly mistakes’. That is an attempt to rewrite history and is not worthy of an otherwise excellent journalist. As for consigning Scutt to junk filter status, you would be cutting of your nose to spite your face.

And by the way, I doubt whether you have heard of me either but as a keen sailor and observer of the sport I maintain my right to comment.




The Publisher
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Mar 21, 2010, 12:24 PM

Post #24 of 26 (15277 views)
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From Bob Bausch:
Gosh, it sounds like Andrew might be on Ernesto’s side. Well, I guess after all that has happened, Ernesto needs a bit of help, doesn’t he?

Andrew, perhaps you didn’t notice (because you had “never heard of” them) that a lot of the “Ernesto bashing” came from simply normal folks that were interested in the America’s Cup, and tuned in to Scuttlebutt to find out what was happening (because it seemed so weird), and discovered the big problem with the latest Cup was that the defender (guess who? Ernesto) was trying to prevent it from actually being sailed.

If Alinghi did as well as you say in their two victories, which, yes, they did do, why are they to be let off the hook, for doing some of the dumbest, most unsportsmanlike, half assed tricks ever tried in the AC to defend it again?

I think Scuttlebutt has reported the facts about this convoluted America’s Cup correctly, and does not need to be criticized. Scuttlebutt is not a “has been”, and does not need to take any harder “look at itself” than Seahorse does.

People like Andrew (and Ernesto) simply can’t handle the truth.


The Publisher
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Mar 22, 2010, 12:15 PM

Post #25 of 26 (14992 views)
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From Angus Phillips: I won't join the contretemps over "Alinghi-bashing." Who really cares? But when Andrew Hurst claims Alinghi "delivered in 2007 perhaps the best Cup event the world has ever seen," he's flipped his lid. Having covered them all since 1980, I can assure you nothing in even that short time frame compares to 1987 in Fremantle--except 1983 in Newport. San Diego was a snore, Auckland set a fine template for the modern Cup, and Valencia followed up creditably. Best ever? Geez Louise! Not even close.


waiknot
****

Mar 22, 2010, 6:32 PM

Post #26 of 26 (14931 views)
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 Mr Hurst,
that is exactly what we have been doing, giving Mr Bertarelli all the respect he deserves. How could a man in your position have missed that, were we a little too subtle? Oh and I'm not American.

By the way Mr HURST WERE STANDING OR SITTING WHEN YOU TYPED YOUR LETTER OF CRITICISM. Just one armchair critic wondering.





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