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Forum Index: DISCUSSION: Dock Talk:
Switching College Sloop Nationals to match racing
Team McLube

 

 


Jake Doyle
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Oct 27, 2009, 9:20 AM

Post #1 of 7 (2700 views)
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Switching College Sloop Nationals to match racing Log-In to Post/Reply

Commenting on Butt 2958 regarding switching sloops to a match racing event:

On possible format changes to the Sloop Nationals, Mitchell Brindley, President, Intercollegiate Sailing Association, provides this update: “There is certainly growing support for shift from fleet racing to match racing for the ICSA Sloop National Championship. I hope to have an acceptable proposal in place for the ICSA Winter meeting for implementation in 2010; however we still have a lot of work to do.”


This would be a great opportunity to grow match racing in North America. To date there is only one collegiate match racing event that I know of and that is the Intrepid Cup at Navy in the spring. It was always one of my favorite events every year and it seems to be growing in popularity. Navy does a great job getting good umpires for the event and they have a sufficient fleet of motorboats to support them.

However I would not switch over just like that, there are some things that have to be overcome.
The big thing in my mind is that outside Navy, Coast Guard and maybe Kings Point who else has the budget to host a match racing event of any scale. Just for one race you need 2 umpires in one boat and a third in a wing boat. So to even have a 10 boat regatta which is what sloops was this year you need 15 qualified umpires as well as 10 separate power boats this is all on top of the regular race management demands of mark set and signal boat personnel and equipment. Getting good umpires is expensive just as any yacht club that has hosted a mach racing event. This is why I wouldn't switch sloops right away. See if the schools that already host sloop events would be willing to host promotional match racing events this spring. Let them experience what it is like to run a match racing event and then let them decide. Sloop and intercollegiate offshore sailing are different than dingy sailing. Unlike dingy sailing they are propped up by a few schools with uncommon resources. They are the stakeholders that really matter and they should be the ones who get to decide.

If they can pull this off without sacrificing the quality of racing (match racing with bad, or worse no umpires present to make the calls is not very fun) I think match racing will become very popular very quickly in college sailing. But I would hate for this to be done half ass.

Just my thoughts,
Jake Doyle New York Maritime class 2009






Henry L. Menin
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Oct 27, 2009, 9:23 AM

Post #2 of 7 (2696 views)
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Re: [Jake Doyle] Switching College Sloop Nationals to match racing [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

I am excited that Jake Doyle, and presumably a number of other college sailors, would like to see match racing in the College Sloop Nationals. That is great news. I am guessing that Taylor Canfield, winning Skipper of this year’s event, will be one of them since he spent this past summer doing 5 or 6 (maybe more) ISAF graded match racing events. The timing of Jake’s letter is impeccable because the development of college match racing is a work in progress in North America.

But I just want to clear up a few points Jake made about umpires and wings at match races.

If you have 10 boats, you can run 5 matches in a flight. That requires 10 umpires (2 per match) and possibly a couple of umpires in a single wing boat…not one for every match. That only happens in the America’s Cup.

We often umpire without a dedicated wing boat, so that would reduce the number of umpires by 2. What we do is have the second umpire team doing the “wing” for the first match, 3rd umpire team “wings for the 2nd match, etc. The 5th match does not get a pre-start umpire, but the first umpire team is often finished its match as the 5th match goes into the pre-start, so they end up “winging” for that last match.

But 10 boats is a lot. Many events only use 8 boats. Then you just need 8 umpires for the 4 matches. If you have a wing boat, that is great. If not, you just do what was described above.

Wings are valuable to be sure, but not critical to an event. Umpires are used to doing their jobs without wings if the budget does not allow for them. So you can do an 8, 10, 12 or 16 team event with 8 competing boats, 4 umpire boats and 8 umpires. Of course there will be boat swapping, but that is normal.

By the way, The US Sailing Center at Sail Sheboyan just hosted the first Midwest Collegiate Sailing Association Invitational match racing clinic and regatta on October 16. Seven teams participated. Look for more of the same from Sail Sheboygan…and look for much more college match racing in the USA in the near future.

And, a little informal survey by me this summer shows that match racing is exploding in the USA. There were somewhere around 35-40 ISAF graded match racing events in North America this year. What’s more, there were about 125-150 additional ungraded match racing events. Those were mostly informal weekday evening or weekend series held in San Francisco Bay, Chicago, Toronto and Detroit during just about every week from May through September (I apologize to any area that I left out…as I said, this was a very informal survey).

If the ISAF Match Racing Committee can help get college match racing rolling in North America, just let us know.


Henry L. Menin, IU

Chairman, ISAF Match Racing Committee


Karl Knauss
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Oct 27, 2009, 9:30 AM

Post #3 of 7 (2694 views)
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Re: [Jake Doyle] Switching College Sloop Nationals to match racing [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Regarding the possible change in format of the ICSA Sloop Nationals shifting from fleet racing to match racing, may I ask one question? What do the sailors want? I would love to hear how sailors who competed in the ICSA Nationals or regional elimination events feel.

Personally I believe that organizing authorities should try to give competitors the type of racing that the racers prefer. If competitors want short windward/leeward courses and 10 races a day, give it to them. If they want a single race around some random local island, give it to them.

I realize that there are limits to any organizer’s ability to provide everything competitors want but they may be able to provide a reasonable approximation. For instance using the match racing college sloop scenario, the host school may only be able to provide one umpire boat per flight but in my mind, given quality umpires, that could be close enough to be acceptable.

However given this specific question (College Nationals: fleet race or match race) the first question organizers should ask is “What do the 100 + competitors who sailed in the final event as well as the preliminary rounds want?” Not the coaches, not the athletic directors but every sailor who had dreams of winning the Nationals this year. I think those are the opinions which should matter most. They might actually prefer the fleet racing format but if they want match racing, a less than perfect, easily replicated solution may be available.


Dobbs Davis
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Oct 27, 2009, 9:32 AM

Post #4 of 7 (2692 views)
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Re: [Jake Doyle] Switching College Sloop Nationals to match racing [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

Just a few comments regarding match racing being considered for the Collegiate Sloop Nationals:

I've had the pleasure of umpiring at the only intercollegiate match race event - the Intrepid Trophy held annually at Navy - and it never fails that the numerous teams that come here from far and wide leave with enthusiasm and hunger for doing more match race sailing. They invariably ask "How can we do more of this?," to which there is usually silence, although new opportunities are opening through facilities such as the Chicago Match Race Center, and of course all the options available in the Women's discipline.

Young Australians and Kiwis like Adam Minoprio and Torvar Mirsky have climbed through the ranks to be leaders on the World Match Racing Tour, and other young and hungry Antipodean talent like Keith Swinton and Phil Robertson are in their footsteps to do the same. Having the Sloop Nationals go to match racing may help spur some similarly young US-born talent to pursue the game at this higher level.


mracingorlando
**

Oct 27, 2009, 9:56 AM

Post #5 of 7 (2690 views)
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Re: [Jake Doyle] Switching College Sloop Nationals to match racing [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

From Larry Landrigan, Match Racing Orlando:

We are in our third year of running the ICSA Promotional Women’s Collegiate Match Race at Rollins College in Winter Park Florida. The first year we ran the event with 4 boats and 4 skippers with main and jib sails. The second year we ran the event with 5 boats and 5 skippers with main, jib and spinnakers. This year the event will be run with 4 boats and 8 skippers with the 5th boat being a reserve boat.

With the 4 boat format we use 2 umpire boats and 1 wing boat with one or two umpires on each boat. We use umpires in training that are glad to attend the event and add to their experience to become certified umpires. It is the chief umpire that certifies to ISAF that the event was run properly so that international match racing points can be awarded to each individual skipper in the event.

We now use an “Ollie” match race starting machine that enables one person to perform the committee boat work where as previously it took two people with extreme concentration to run an event. When the machine is used for match racing practice the coach can concentrate on coaching and not on watching a clock, blowing horns and raising flags.

We are in the process of proposing to College Sailing (ICSA) to use this event as a qualifier for the winning women’s team to be accepted to compete in the Intrepid Cup at Navy in the spring. We use the www.wimra.org calendar section to advertise the event and www.northu.com to run the match racing clinic and to oversee the ISAF Grade 5 women’s match race. It is quite interesting to look at the International Women’s Match Rankings list and see the names of the participants in these past events listed high up in the rankings. Hopefully match racing will become popular in college sailing. In the case of women’s collegiate match racing it can lead directly upon graduation to a 2012 or 2016 Women’s Olympic match racing campaign attempt.

Thank You,

Larry Landrigan
Email matchracingorlando@hotmail.com
Website www.ussailing.net/LBCS




Bruce Thompson
***

Oct 28, 2009, 8:26 AM

Post #6 of 7 (2620 views)
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This discussion ties in nicely with the idea I previously posted for a Lighning Retro http://forum.sailingscuttlebutt.com/...unior_sailing_P7994/

Near the end of that post I discussed the possibility of using one as the basis for a Women's sloop championship.

I took advantage of the recent US Sailing Championship of Champions to float the idea past some knowledgable young sailors.


Laser Radial Champion Mateo Vargas and crew Mary Kate Hall liked the idea. So did Lois Parshley, a Lightning sailor crewing for Finn Champion Darrell Peck, and a sailor for Middlebury College.

I have also had discussions with invitee Stephanie Hudson, C420 champion (though she was unable to attend due to scheduling conflicts with her college racing program).

There is a common theme, we need more & better opportunities for women and younger sailors.

As a notional idea, I would like to continue investigating the Lightning Radial idea with the idea of making available both mixed fleet racing (for time in the boat and boatspeed testing etc) and women's match racing.


Those of us in the Lightning Midwest District and its neighboring districts have some unique advantages for such a program.

Their names are Kristine Wake, Tobi Moriarty, Debbie & Abbie Probst.


Kristine is the captain of the Sheboygan Lightning fleet and secretary of Sail Sheboygan.

Tobi is the forward crew of the 2009 Lighting World Champion team.

Debbie is the person most responsible for the Lightning Boat Grant Program http://lightningclass.org/.../boatGrant/index.asp . Abbie is her 11 year old daughter and ace crew.



For example, we could exploit existing partnerships between Fleet 187 and Sail Sheboygan, and between Fleet 5 and the Midwest Match Racing Center in Chicago. The women could get in a lot of racing in mixed fleets against some excellent sailors (see list above) and then do individual match racing to learn the specifics of match racing.

My only comment regarding 2016 is beware of my dark horse Women's Match Racing fantasy team, Debbie Probst with Abbie & her BFF. Abbie will be 18 by then!


mracingorlando
**

Nov 6, 2009, 12:41 PM

Post #7 of 7 (2522 views)
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Re: [Henry L. Menin] Switching College Sloop Nationals to match racing [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply

To: Henry L. Menin IU,

On the Scuttlebutt forum you wrote:

"If the ISAF Match Racing Committee can help get college match racing rolling in North America, just let us know.

Henry L. Menin, IU

Chairman, ISAF Match Racing Committee"


Mr. Menin,

I would like to discuss the paragraph 24.2.3 Grading of Events (a) Grade 5 - Open and Women section detailing maximum average weight limit for open events of 87.5 kg and the maximum average crew weight for women's events of 68 kg. It appears that the weight of four women equals the weight of three men. This rule is apparently is being used to allow a three person women's team to add a fourth woman to their team to compete against three men in an open event which is ok but it becomes cumbersome when applied to developing a collegiate match racing program. College sailing uses small weight sensitive 2 person boats for fleet and team racing that by default results in a heavy skipper and a light crew, and as the sailors grow they outgrow the boats. This situation does not need to be carried over to collegiate match racing in keel boats.

What I would like is to have ISAF amend this rule to make the maximum average crew weight limit to be the same for both open and women's match racing events. This amendment would allow the women's teams to compete in both ISAF graded women's collegiate match race events and ISAF graded collegiate open match race events with the same team members.

Thank You,

Larry Landrigan
email larrylandrigan@hotmail.com
website www.ussailing.net/LBCS
Larry Landrigan


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