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Forum Index: DISCUSSION: Dock Talk:
Starting strategy for 33rd America's Cup
Team McLube

 

 


James Stevralia
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Jan 11, 2010, 1:09 PM

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So we seem to be moving along to making the America's Cup into an actual sailing event. As an attorney in New York City, the litigation has certainly been interesting and has captured the attention of many in the non-sailing legal community. It is actually true interest and not cynical observation. Now with the event coming alive, I am wondering if Scuttlebutt or any of the readers can direct me an article on the starting strategies which the teams will be employing.

Having enjoyed match racing for a good number of years I can appreciate the role of the pre-start in a successful event. However, I cannot imagine the maneuvering that is customary with the long, wide and fast vessels competing. To enter the start box 3 to 5 minutes before the start could put these boats miles from the start. Can they do a dial up? How fast will the tack and accelerate? Or will it just become a race of boat speed? Good start/bad start doesn't matter???


waiknot
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Jan 11, 2010, 9:45 PM

Post #2 of 18 (13286 views)
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Dam good question, I wonder if the participants know the answer yet?


The Publisher
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Jan 12, 2010, 5:56 AM

Post #3 of 18 (13221 views)
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While the SI's might change, the version published on January 8th says:

At her preparatory (5 minute) signal each boat shall be outside the line that is at a 90° angle to the starting line through the mark at her assigned end of the Entry Line. Within the two minute period following her preparatory signal, a boat shall cross and clear the line between the entry mark and the RC Boat (the Entry Line), the first time from the course side to the pre-start side. After that, or after the end of the two minute period following the preparatory signal, the entry mark no longer ranks as a mark for the purpose of the definition of a mark.



Link for SI's: http://www.alinghi.com/...structions_draft.pdf


willbaillieu
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Jan 12, 2010, 11:35 AM

Post #4 of 18 (13144 views)
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America's Cup is match racing. The ultimate contest. One on one.
We shouldn't have to dream up a new starting protocol just to accommodate these stupid freak boats. Maybe Bertarelli and Ellison should have thought of all this before they embarked on this great fiasco.
Ernesto Bertarelli stated in his Scuttlebutt (#3004) interview
"You cannot operate these boats without an engine if you want to match race."
If they are not suited to match racing without an engine, then call me naive, but why are they being used at all?
BMW/Oracle called for the DoG match and started building theirs way ahead of Alinghi, and would not cease, which meant Alinghi was forced to construct their own.
Now we have two freak craft, unsuited to match racing and requiring diesel powered sails to get around the track.
How much did this stuff up cost?


jrb
***

Jan 12, 2010, 5:51 PM

Post #5 of 18 (13096 views)
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I’ll agree with you that engines have no place on an AC boat. That must be particularly insulting to a grinder from an AC winning team. As far as the engines go, BOR was prepared to match race w/o engines and only installed one after Alinghi did and a judge inappropriately ruled engines to be appropriate for the match. Apparently BOR disagrees with Bertarelli wrt the ability to match race these large multi-hulls without the assistance of an engine. Big surprise! In any event, I find it ironic you seem to side with the anti-grinder/pro-engine team, rather than the team reluctantly utilizing an engine to trim.

I’m still not sure why you persist in placing the blame for the DoG match on BOR? Berarelli had ample opportunity to defend in a multi team challenge. He declined to by refusing to race under a similar protocol to the previous defense. That sounded like a reasonable offer to me, and one that would have made BOR one of many challenging teams. The opportunity was missed/rejected by Bertarelli.

As far as match racing starts with these boats, the necessary technique may be lost on your average talented/retired AC winning grinder, but I have no doubt the helmsmen and tacticians will figure it out.

(It might seem more manly of Bertarelli if he would consent to race in winds over 15 knots (measured well aloft) and waves over 1 meter. You know, the kind of conditions a novice Optimist sailor might enjoy……)





willbaillieu
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Jan 12, 2010, 6:06 PM

Post #6 of 18 (13087 views)
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Thanks jrb, I am fully up to scratch on the normal match racing start techniques, but nobody yet knows what will happen when you try to spin these monsters around in close proximity to another monster boat, indeed even if you can, without their rigs falling down.
Whomever dreamed up these motorised yachts has done this iconic event a great disservice. Both boats have engines.
As I have posted elsewhere:
"I think it would be better if they started at opposite ends of a 2 mile long rectangular track, and went direct at each other, with long lances. Full speed reaching, with a closing speed of about 60 knots. A $200 million game of chicken. Whoever swerves loses".


waiknot
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Jan 12, 2010, 6:45 PM

Post #7 of 18 (13080 views)
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Will,
Why oh why do you persist in claiming that BOR insisted on the DOG match when you have had numerous people provide information to the opposite. While I am aware of you background with the America's Cup(and a little envious) this consistent promotion of incorrect information does your credibility no good.

As for your observation regards the dial up at the start. I'm with you, at least the first race is going to be exciting to see if these monsters can duel at the start, my guess is they may choose to avoid close dicing. This must be the only sport known to man where the 5 min before the start can be more important than the actual race.





willbaillieu
****

Jan 12, 2010, 8:43 PM

Post #8 of 18 (13063 views)
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Just to set this straight, BOR successfully applied to the Courts to be installed as Challenger of Record. BOR then forced the Deed of Gift match because they did not like the proposed Challenger protocol.
At no stage did Alinghi ask for, demand or want the DoG match. Have a look at the historical record of this Challenge. You have made a subjective judgement about these events, and while you are entitled to your opinion, it is not supported by the facts.
In fact Alinghi proposed a 19 team Challenger series in a new 90 foot America's Cup Class boat. Nothing illegal or improper in their proposal. It was in fact supported by 18 of the challenging teams.
BOR was the only team not to agree but they were able to use their status as Challenger of Record to force a DoG match, excluding all other teams. They have not deviated in their determination to have a DoG match ever since.

But with luck, all the talk about who did what and when will become irrelevant when there is an almighty impact off Valencia, some time in February, followed by a shower of carbon fibre splinters raining down upon the spectator fleet. Hopefully not too many people will be hurt when the fuel tanks on these sailing yachts explode, and with luck this farce will be brought to an end.


jrb
***

Jan 13, 2010, 8:19 AM

Post #9 of 18 (13037 views)
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Once BOR was installed as Challenger of Record, they offered Alinghi a multi-challenger match under the AC 32 protocol. Bertarelli and company rejected the offer. By default (and for multiple other reasons), it appears Alinghi did, in fact, want a DoG match.

BOR didn’t accept the proposed AC 33 protocol, the proposed new boat, or the proposed Challenger of Record - puppet of Alinghi and not qualified under the Deed of Gift. Only BOR seems to have had the funds at hand to bankroll the process required to keep Alinghi begrudgingly honest (kicking and screaming all the way) regarding deed compliance. Many of the other ~17 challengers were not thrilled about the proposed protocol, the lead in design time Alinghi gave itself with the proposed new boat design parameters, or the unqualified puppet Challenger of Record. Had Alinghi accepted a challenge from a qualifying club, rather than CNEV, then it appears our arguments here would be moot. But since Alinghi/Bertarelli cannot seem to metaphorically organize a booze up in a brewery if everyone brings their own mug, as it relates to AC 33, then here we are.

Back to the topic of starting strategy, it’s no mystery that faster craft will tend to spend less time in close proximity to each other than relatively slower craft. If you want some inference as to starting strategy, look at fast cats, fast skiffs, and quick boats employing foils.

It will be interesting to see if these multi-hulls can avoid catastrophic breakdowns or collisions. The spectator boats (however few or many) are to be kept well out of harms way and should not suffer a carbon fiber shower.





Peter Isler
**

Jan 13, 2010, 2:50 PM

Post #10 of 18 (13005 views)
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Winning a match race start requires excellent timing, good boat handling, and a boat that turns fast and accelerates quickly. The most spectacular form of starting line win features the victor blasting off the line whilst the loser flounders, down speed, with a penalty owed. These match race "kills" are rare at the professional level because they are so risky. If you go for the kill and miss, either because the umpires don't agree that the competitor fouled you or because you tried to get too fancy and your aggressive maneuvering leaves you slower than the opponent, your embarrassment is swift. It’s much safer to aim to get a slightly better start than your opponent by being on the favored side with a swifter "launch" than trying to get too fancy for your own good.

When the Alinghi's catamaran and BMW Oracle's trimaran face off in the five minute pre start in the America's Cup I don't expect we'll see too much in the way of prestart fireworks, (although with closing speed of maybe 100 knots that first entry could be pretty spectacular). The problem is multifold. Multihulls are not as maneuverable as monohulls to begin with, and neither team has a trial horse with which to practice starting line moves. Tactical pre-start moves learned on smaller cats won't necessarily "scale up" easily.

Conventional wisdom would say that the Alinghi cat, with its wider effective "wheelbase" will be less maneuverable in big turns than the US trimaran. Plus the BMW Oracle wing "sail" greatly enhances that boat's turning and acceleration ability. When we mounted the first wing on our Stars & Stripes catamaran preparing for the '88 Cup, we quickly noticed a big improvement in maneuvering versus our sister ship trial horse which sported a conventional rig.

And even if you're not buying into conventional wisdom, there's no way for either team to really know how they stack up on the acceleration/maneuvering front with their competitor... so it would be pretty risky to come out with all guns blazing in the pre start. It would not be good to watch your competitor sail off to the first mark at 40 knots whilst you are still tied in knots at the starting line.

It will be interesting to see if either team chooses to try and "dial up" their competitor during the pre start. The boats should stop very quickly when "dialed". And anyone who has sailed a multihull knows that they go backwards just fine. But tactical control in the dial up requires pin point positioning relative to the enemy and without any real life practice, nor good intel on the enemy, my guess is that this won't be a priority tactic after teams weigh risk vs. reward.

By employing conservative defensive tactics, even the boat with a pre-start/maneuvering disadvantage should be able to be able to get a fairly even start, albeit maybe giving up the favored side.

My guess is that both teams have too much on the line to risk going for the gold in earning a pre-start kill on the first race. These are much longer courses than typical AC races, and boat speed on the open course is the most valuable commodity. That's where the lion's share of each team's R&D and practice should be focused. However, if one team does exhibit a clear speed advantage during the first race, it’s probable that the "slower" team might shift into more risky, desperation pre-start tactics for the later race(s).


waiknot
****

Jan 13, 2010, 9:21 PM

Post #11 of 18 (12987 views)
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Will,

I'm sorry but you are so far from the truth about how the DOG match came about.

Alinghi's challenger of record was thrown out as it was not legal.
You state that BOR did not like the proposed Challenger protocol. The challenger was thrown out therefore their Challenger protocol was toast as well.

Quite simple really.

The legal Challenger of record BOR proposed a Challenger protocol based on the successful 32 America's Cup. Alinghi rejected this forcing the DOG match

I refuse to believe you don't understand this, which leads me to believe you have very close ties to the Alinghi propaganda machine.


Roger England
*

Jan 14, 2010, 12:37 PM

Post #12 of 18 (12964 views)
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Given the extreme speed and size of these beasts, maybe a drag race type start with a "Christmas Tree".


willbaillieu
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Jan 14, 2010, 12:38 PM

Post #13 of 18 (12962 views)
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I think it would be better if they started at opposite ends of a 2 mile long rectangular track, and went direct at each other, with long lances. Full speed reaching, with a closing speed of about 60 knots. A $200 million game of chicken. Whoever swerves loses.


peterbrown77
***


Jan 14, 2010, 4:55 PM

Post #14 of 18 (12951 views)
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Will,

I think you are shown a great amount of deference on this forum because of your past participation in the America's Cup.

I have read your posts for quite a while regarding the DoG match and have to say, quite frankly, that you don't know what you are talking about. Your command of the facts in this matter is not credible, and your constant attacks on BOR and defense of Alinghi fly in the face of reality. Nor is this a case of "a pox on both your houses".

- Alinghi attempted to rig the Cup. BOR called them on it and won in court multiple times
- Alinghi have refused multiple times to return to the AC32 rules when offered to them
- Alinghi chose a non-compliant venue, and were too clever by half
- Alinghi so disgusted Louis Vuitton that they quit the event after 25 years
- Alinghi have forced a DoG match by refusing to return to AC32 protocol
- Alinghi has a non-compliant boat with sails not made in their home country.

Those are the FACTS in this case. In response, BOR has held them to the terms of the Deed that Alinghi have a duty to uphold - nothing more and nothing less.

Peter Brown


jrb
***

Jan 15, 2010, 9:22 AM

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Thanks Peter. I don't think James Stevralia will be able to get a better or more well reasoned answer to his questions.





The Publisher
*****


Jan 24, 2010, 8:59 AM

Post #16 of 18 (12193 views)
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* From Brad Dellenbaugh:
Regarding Peter Isler's comments in Scuttlebutt 3013 on the 33rd America’s Cup starting strategy, don't expect any dial-ups. The sailing instructions show an 'entry mark' that appears to be set about 25 degrees below the port-end starting mark. The line between this entry mark and the Race Committee boat forms the Entry Line through which the two boats must 'enter' by crossing from the course side to the pre-start side within a two minute period after the preparatory signal (after which the 'entry mark' has no relevance). This is designed so that as long as the 'port end' boat enters on time, she will be able to cross ahead of the 'starboard end' boat and avoid any chance of a dial up in these multihull beasts closing at incredible speeds.

Instead, expect the boats to focus on their timed approaches to the line, maybe circling a couple of times depending on maneuverability, and trying to control the end of the line that is on the side of the course that they want to protect. The excitement may come when approaching the line on their final runs, perhaps a bit early, and the trailing boat trying to 'hook' the lead boat (get a leeward overlap) either to luff them over the line or hold them outside the starboard end of the line, OR to force them to sail fast to protect against this, but end up too early for the pin end. Pretty exciting at 40 knots! Wonder which hull overlapping which other hull will count as a leeward overlap! And as Pedro says, you definitely don't want to end up parked in a multihull at the start of a race!


Mal
****

Feb 13, 2010, 8:54 AM

Post #17 of 18 (11716 views)
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In Reply To
And as Pedro says, you definitely don't want to end up parked in a multihull at the start of a race!

Yet that's exactly how the start in a fleet race in cats often takes place...
Check Six .......Mal




EaglesPDX
***

Feb 16, 2010, 3:10 PM

Post #18 of 18 (11645 views)
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" The most spectacular form of starting line win features the victor blasting off the line whilst the loser flounders, down speed, with a penalty owed."

And what we had in BOTH the AC33 starts.

The multihulls proved themselves to be thrillers in every aspect of the race. Whatever objection was raised to having the faster boats was debunked by the race.

Had Peter's 'dream start' occurred with the slow mono hulls the race would have been over and everyone could have gone home (certainly a TV audience would have evaporated).

The speed of the multihulls kept both boats in it so we had spectacular starts AND great races.

It's hard to see how the AC can go back to slow boats now that every objection to fast boats has been answered.



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