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Forum Index: DISCUSSION: Dock Talk: SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE?

The Publisher ***** May 10, 2010, 11:27 AM Post #1 of 27 (4894 views) Shortcut SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? Log-In to Post/Reply SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? By Don Finkle, RCR Yachts The search for the optimal handicapping system has been going on forever and the results are elusive. Over the years we have had a parade of better mousetraps, rules/systems such as CCA, IOR, LOR, ORR, IMS, MORC, Portsmouth, PHRF and now IRC (sorry if I left anyone out, but you get the idea). What usually happens is there is an initial level of excitement for the new rule as sailors look forward to better racing, especially the thought that maybe their own boat will be treated more kindly under this new rule. Then invariably some of them decide that their yacht is not so favorably rated after all, and they become disgruntled as they were before. We end up with some owners liking the rule because they feel they are rated well, and others who don't like their own rating. The rules may change, and those who are happy or unhappy may change, but the result is the same. Not everyone likes the system then in vogue. Hence this continuum of systems being discarded in favor of something newer. Regardless of what rule is used, the sailors that compete under it vary widely in skill, experience, competitive nature and commitment, as well as the reason they race in the first place. Let’s assume that it is a given that everyone wants to win, but they don't all expect to win. Problems arise when owners either feel they have no chance to win, or when they are used to winning and expect to win, but aren't winning any more. In either case they will be unhappy, and then look for another rule or worse yet, quit sailing. This is the challenge for those who administer the sport, how to appeal to most of the sailors most of the time, so that we maintain and even grow participation. The rule used can either encourage or discourage, depending on how good a job it does of providing equitable competition. It is an elusive and even a moving target, especially as boat designs change. There is one other point to consider here. Should we stick to handicapping boats only, and not the people who sail them? Generally only the equipment is rated, not the people, and of course the better people usually win this way. That is good for the better sailors, if their goal is a trophy, but maybe it's not actually the best for them in the long run. If they had to work harder to win maybe they would actually benefit. Other sports such as golf and bowling handicap the people, so that everyone has a better chance. It seems to me that we should consider offering both types of racing, some that handicaps boats, and some that handicaps people. Everyone would know the game when they set out, so there should not be any upset when a more accomplished sailor lost to one of lesser experience who happened to have a good day. Maybe this encouragement would keep people interested long enough until their skills improve to the point that they can be competitive in a system where only the boat is handicapped. Excerpts on the subject from RCR Yachts Racer's News: http://psndealer.com/dealersite/images/rcryachts/racersnews041410.pdf http://psndealer.com/dealersite/images/rcryachts/racersnews041410.pdf

The Publisher ***** May 11, 2010, 12:54 PM Post #2 of 27 (4857 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Scuttlebutt 3089 * From Andrew McIrvine, RORC commodore: In response to Don Finkle's interesting piece on handicapping (Scuttlebutt 3088), as far as I know the PHRF system which handicaps crew performance as well as equipment is pretty unique to North America. Clearly it works but I was surprised when I brought a boat to Fort Lauderdale planning to go on to Key West Race Week that I needed two PHRF certificates. It does seem too parochial but without local knowledge how will you rate the crew as opposed to the boat? The other worry must be that changes in crew will make radical changes in performance with no change in handicap. Over here (in the UK) we only rate boats. Some of the most vitriolic complaints we get about IRC are when a 'famous' owner gets the idea that his rating calculation is personal rather than for the boat. Ultimately all systems are unfair and you cannot please all the people all of the time in all conditions - and if you start from that premise it makes it slightly easier! * From Bill Porter: The ‘P’ in PHRF is for performance of the people as much as the boat. * From John Eilers: Only in golf do they handicap the people; in horse racing they add weight to the horse. We have a cement Pig for a trophy; possibly the winner should be required to sail with it in the boat the next year.

The Publisher ***** May 12, 2010, 7:38 AM Post #3 of 27 (4841 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Scuttlebutt 3090 * From Doug Mills, PHRF SoCal President, 1998: In Southern California, the PHRF System rates the boat and not the crew or skipper. In practice, this discourages new racers who quit after being hammered their first few times out. I have seen this many times, and we are losing racers because of this. Our valid list continues to slowly atrophy as time passes. We do have flexibility. We have local area ratings, which are distinct from the base ratings used commonly in longer races and major events. The former are employed primarily in club races. Why can't PHRF SoCal give a big break to newbies by giving them a great deal of time in the local area ratings? Current rules limit deviation between base and local rating to plus or minus twelve seconds but this can be changed. We should give the new people a very big break on the local area rating, and reel them in slowly if they start to perform. The base rating can be based on the boat; if you want to play with the big dogs you have to get off the porch. I have suggested this numerous times over the years, to be shut down firmly. The guys who run PHRF -- great people for sure - -have no sense what it is like to show up for your first few races to end up at the bottom of the sheet every time. We have to change and bend in the current era, when very few at our trophy presentations are under the age of sixty. * From John Wade: There is nothing in the PHRF system that attempts to rate performance of the sailors. The "P" in PHRF refers to the performance of the boat, in optimum racing condition, sailed by competent sailors. It is an attempt to put the PHRF sailors in the same condition as one design sailors; and as in one design sailing, there is always going to be someone in first and someone in last place. There is no place on the PHRF rating form that asks for sailor experience or competence. PHRF rates boats, not people. * From Laurence Mead: A few years ago an enterprising and innovative member of our Etchells fleet put together a years worth of results and came up with a personal handicapping system that ranked everybody ready for the new season. It was a great piece of work that was purely statistically based. The screams of horror from those skippers who didn't ‘like’ their numbers meant the project was never used to score a single race..........enough said! Great idea though.

The Publisher ***** May 12, 2010, 7:58 AM Post #4 of 27 (4839 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply These letters were sent to Don Finkle, who authored the original story: From RB: "Don, I read your blurb today about handicapping both the boat and the sailor . . .It reminded me about the comment I heard once about One-Design racing . . ." The problem is that on most days, the better sailor will win… I don't want that - I need a handicapping system that will give me the most possible days when My Boat will be favored" . . . . .Cheers, RB" -------------------- From Maine: "Thanks for your well thought out piece in Scuttlebutt regarding handicapping: Having transitioned through most of the handicap rules you mentioned, there are always inequities. My most recent experience was with a long time friend who campaigned his boat at a very high level with every variable optimized from bottom, to sails, crew, and weight, but had to give time under IRC to a similar size boat (same designer) that was undeniably faster boat for boat. While he could win on occasion, he ultimately moved to the boat with the better rating. One design racing eliminates the frustration of perceived or real rating inequities, but then there's no excuse to lose - so if you're finishing last in one design, it can be far more demoralizing than finishing last in a handicap fleet. Your suggestion of handicapping the sailor is intriguing and might be an interesting experiment but the question then becomes who in a local club would want to be in the precarious position of assigning the subjective sailor handicaps. Does one handicap the skipper's demonstrated ability or that of the entire crew? We've all seen boats go from the back to the front when a rock star sailmaker or someone with deep local knowledge and tactical ability steps aboard, and have that same boat back slide when the talent steps off the boat. If the sailor handicapping could be done in an objective and transparent manner it might work. Perhaps you handicap years of racing experience and average finish so beginners get a break. Of course the sailor handicap would have to be altered as experience increased and results improved. Good luck and thank you for leaping into the breach! Regards, Tom Babbit" -------------------- And another: "Mr. Finkle, Having worked as a PHRF Rating Chairman and Yacht Club Fleet Captain for most of the last 2 decades I'd like to throw out a couple of points you might want to consider. First in your promotion of a National PHRF, please consider that the basis of PHRF in "performance potential of the boat". The potential is obviously different in windier areas (San Francisco) than light air (Chesapeake Bay). This is especially important when considering marginal planing boats and very heavy cruisers. Secondly any discussion of a "golf" handicap which considers the crew misses the point that very few local club boats sail with the same crew every race. What do you do when the local sailmaker comes out for a ride as a coach... never touching the helm or a line versus comes out and drives. Sailmaker is the extreme but I'm a Category 1 who sails Star & J-29 with some limited success. I spend a fair amount of my time encouraging people to come out by racing a couple of times on their boats.. I like to think that this usually improves the boats results for those races. Should the rating change when I go with them? When their normal foredeck crew is out of town do the get a credit ? One rating you missed in ORC-Club , VPP Rule that costs 40 euros ($55) a year, owner reported no measurer... why did US Sailing just turn down a request to consider endorsing this rule? Also consider that in the around the Isle of Wight race in Cowes they get 1,800 boats with roughly 1,500 sailing IRC... what most Americans don't recognize is that 2/3rd's of those IRC boats are non-measured "Standard" certificates. An option that isn't used in any significant amount in the US. Regards, JT PS - IRC is a terrible rule that the Australians have just about dropped. Created in the Solent that is almost all fixed mark racing in 3+ knots of current it is useless in W/L courses. At least ORR and it's European cousin ORC consider course configuration and wind strength."

The Publisher ***** May 13, 2010, 9:30 AM Post #5 of 27 (4826 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Scuttlebutt 3091 * From Tom Leweck: Former SoCal PHRF President Doug Mills (in Scuttlebutt 3090) favors ‘giving newbies a great deal of time in local races.’ Wow! While I too am a former president of SoCal PHRF - many years before Mills - I personally cannot imagine the appeal of a handicap system that rewards mediocrity and punishes excellence. * From Dick Olsen, Staff Commodore, Nawiliwili Yacht Club: I appreciated the recent article in Scuttlebutt 3088 and also RCR Yachts Racer's News #363, April 14, 2010 covering the various handicapping systems and the associated problems. The Nawiliwili Yacht Club in Kauai, Hawaii, has been faced with the same problem: the same people and boats always win, and it's discouraging to the other boats. Our solution was to implement the "Club" handicap system. After each race, we compute the handicap that each boat would have to had to match the finishing time of the first PHRF finisher. This forms the basis of the Club handicap as we are now taking into account the performance of the boat and the crew. We then accumulate this data for a year to get good statistical data as we have approximately 40 races a year. At the end of the year we throw out any outliers for each individual boat (this covers the possibility of "sandbagging" or showing up late for a race) using a statistical formula. We then average each boat's current club handicap with the handicap from the previous year. At our annual awards party, we trophy the top three finishers in PHRF and Club handicap for each race series. I can send you more details and you can see our results at: www.nawiliwiliyachtclub.org . (description of the Club Handicap System attached) * From Michael A. Rosenauer: Regarding rating systems, the issue is splayed out before all of us. Nobody can dispute that different boats have different attributes which combine to impact their speed around the course. It is equally undisputable that every handicapping system boasts that it truly levels the playing field. The boats themselves do not change (or at least are not suppose to change). Why then, can the rating systems come to such differing conclusions when scrutinizing the identical boat? The answer is the particular system does indeed consider the crews, the particular system stresses differing attributes, or the raters are simply making their best guesses. The frustration for the participants (whether they be owners or crews) emanates from the fact that rigorous analysis will, at times, bring absurd results while observation based handicaps yields identical anomalies because they can integrate personalities and protectionism of certain boats or classes of boats. The fact of the matter is that any handicapping system simply attempts to balance boats and conditions such that the bell curve of results brings about what competitors can call a "fair result". Attachments: Description of the Club Handicap System.doc (24.0 KB)

The Publisher ***** May 14, 2010, 6:55 AM Post #6 of 27 (4819 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Scuttlebutt 3092 * From Tim Patterson: Well said, Tom, I think you should say it anytime someone suggests such a scheme. Soon enough the racing will tell if the newbie needs more time or less. We are all sailing for fun in PHRF, are we not? * From Reynald Neron: I had to comment concerning a reader's mail on how to attract new people into the sport. I quote: “I personally cannot imagine the appeal of a handicap system that rewards mediocrity and punishes excellence.” So this is assuming that newbies=mediocre and "salties"=excellence. Hum... that attitude is not going to help much attract newbies onto yachts, is it? While I am no president of anything, I have seen many newbies which were better sailors than salties. They learnt better, and more importantly, they know they don’t know it all. Salties, sometimes, have no idea... and believe they are excellent... bad combination. * From Walter I. Bostwick, St. Thomas, VI: The Barnacle Bill's fun summer sailing series had the "Fun Factor" PHRF. Start with your regular numbers, if you win you get a 9 point rating hit, 6 point hit for 2nd, 3 points for 3rd, and bottom three boats of fleet get rating bonus. Keeps sailors coming back to see how they do next week with the new handicap. This is suggested only if your good sailors and crews have a sense of humor. But if not, why sail against them anyway.

The Publisher ***** May 17, 2010, 9:06 AM Post #7 of 27 (4771 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Scuttlebutt 3093 * From Ken Quant: In Milwaukee Bay, the two most popular fleets both use a floating PHRF rating system that adjusts based on performance. All racers start the season with their base PHRF rating and then get seconds removed or added each week based on results. Of course this leads to all sorts of spirited ratings discussions and theories on sand bagging, but the bottom line is that there are up to 70 boats on the line every Wednesday night and over 40 every Friday night, and both series use a floating rating system. In contrast, the fleets using standard ratings are either declining or holding steady at best. The only fleet currently adding numbers in town is the Friday night series. Is it a perfect system for handicapping sailors? Of course not. But people turn out to sail, and have for years. I'm sure part of that is the fact that everyone feels they have a chance to compete with the more polished boats and crews. Of course it could be the free beer on Wednesday nights as well. * From John McLeod, Toronto: Over the last week or so I've seen several writers say that the reason people don't stick with racing is because they don't do get good results in their first few attempts. And all I can think is, seriously? Do you expect to play guitar like Clapton the first week you pick up the instrument? Do you expect to shoot hoops like MJ right out of the gate? I crewed for five years before I bought my boat, and in that time I gained great respect for the racers at our club. Some of these sailors are former Canadian, North American and world champions. Others have been racing for 60 years or more. One of our skippers, now sailing a Star, crewed in two Whitbread races. The top people in every fleet here know our winds and waters intimately, and they prep their boats with tremendous care. My first season as a skipper my goals were pretty humble: 1) Don't hit anyone, and 2) Try not to be DFL. We're now six years in. I've gotten better as a skipper and my crew has quite literally learned the ropes. We've also had a little luck, and we've been able to gather a little collection of flags, including some yellow ones. We're very proud of what we've been able to do, partly because we hold our competition in such high regard. My advice to sailors new to racing is this: lower your expectations, gain some real respect for your more experienced competitors and open your eyes and ears. The only way to win is to learn.

The Publisher ***** May 18, 2010, 7:48 AM Post #8 of 27 (4749 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Scuttlebutt 3094 * From Geoffrey Robinson: Unfortunately, for the occasional racer, there is no handicap system which allows for all the vagaries between a boat organized for racing and the boat used for cruising. For our club races under PHRF, some boats are never cruised, have none of the normal cruising gear on board, and are certainly advantaged. Also unfortunately, if a system is devised to attempt to compensate for these differences, some racers will take advantage, using the rules to increase their chances on the race course. The bottom line is that there is no way to design a rule that no one can use to their advantage. The only hope is for all sailors to be honorable. Probably not going to happen. * From Frank Conway: I have sailed in all the different classes (IOR, IMS, IRC and PHRF) and feel that rating the crews is unfair and will lead to more problems than it’s worth. If you are new to a sport, you have to know you are going to get beat up. If losing drives people away, do we even want them? Does one design then need to get "rated". Sailing is a sport of endurance, skill and strength. When we started sailing, we were so far back the committee boat was sometimes gone but we kept pressing on and never quit, and it made us better sailors. In other sports where handicaps are for the individual performance, there is a practice called sand-bagging. In golf, you can easily miss a few putts to get a higher handicap, which will give you a couple of extra strokes the next tournament you are in that uses handicaps. In bowling, another sport with handicaps, I have seen guys miss when way ahead or behind in games to get the average lower, especially at the start of the season. Guys who averaged a 210 the year before start in the 180's to 190's, thus getting extra pins each game. So with regard to sailing, who is to say that a crew does not perform to their ability to get extra seconds per mile in the crew handicap system? Dog it for a year, get a generous PHRF rating and win everything the next year. Seen that before and I am sure many who read this have seen it too....

The Publisher ***** May 18, 2010, 3:37 PM Post #9 of 27 (4740 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Scuttlebutt 3095 * From Bill Kellner: Don wants PHRF to be national and to rate sailors. It might sound like a good idea, but as a former member of the National PHRF Committee with 22 years of handicapping experience, I think it is a spectacularly bad idea. For pure administrative reasons alone it would be a nightmare. Remember, there are anywhere from 10 to 15,000 boats racing PHRF in the US. Contrast that to about 600 with current IRC certificates. So how would a national committee rate a sailor in Petoskey, Michigan racing on Wednesday nights? If rating the sailor is done locally, it couldn’t be anything but political. Don’s point is that if you buy a new boat with a cruise-oriented set of options then you will have a tough time winning in PHRF. I agree. It is a dilemma for the manufacturers and dealers like Don because the bulk of boats being sold today have a lot of creature comfort options. The manufacturers are no dummies; they are marketing to momma who holds the purse strings. Look at the size of boats being sold. At 40 feet, the graying target market sailor needs the roller furling headsails, roller furling main (with requisite electric winch), shoal keel, dodger, bimini, fern in a planter and a three bladed prop to keep momma happy. The problem arises when the buyer gets tired of sipping wine at the dock and wants to go out and race. He gathers up a couple of buddies and ventures into the local regatta world. There he encounters some guy in a 25 year old 33 foot boat with a good Aramid inventory and seven experienced crew. Bottom line, he gets embarrassed boat for boat by the 33 footer. Who does he complain to? He goes to Don the boat salesman, who just sold him a $250,000 pleasure palace with the performance characteristics of a gold plated brick. It makes it tougher for Don to sell him the next boat. It is easy to lose sight of the fact that the guy with the well-prepared older boat spent years getting it that way and probably got toasted on the racecourse for years himself. Since Don is a one design sailor I’d suggest that he try his idea out on his own Beneteau 36.7 fleet. Give the new guys in his OD fleet either a handicap or a head start. Heck, they don’t need good sails or a competitive crew, just help them out a little so that they can win and hopefully they will come back for more. Anybody else see a flaw in that line of thinking? Bottom line is that most PHRF areas rate boats that are prepared to the level of the rating band you race in. If you want to have performance robbing options on your boat then you could reasonably expect that it might not be suitable for competitive racing. It is all about choices. Boat dealers would be better served by setting realistic expectations about the race-ability of the boats they are selling. When was last time you heard a boat salesman say to the prospective customer at a boat show, “Well, if you want to race this puppy, plan on spending $20,000 on sails, $7,000 on a bottom job, deep keel option, $5,000 on hardware upgrades and delete the generator, bow roller, roller furling main and fixed prop. On top of that, I hope you have seven good sailing friends willing to sacrifice a lot of time to help you win.” It is more likely that you will hear, “Yep this baby has got a faster rating than your friend’s CatHunBene 42. You’ll blow by him on the race course like he is stopped. Heck, we ought to put warning stickers on this bad boy it is so fast. Momma will be happy too with the genset, washer/dryer combo, flat screen television, entertainment center, and combo microwave/stove/oven. Come to think of it, we might even throw in an icemaker. Momma can even raise the main if she can push a button.” Don, there is a place for these boats in racing. It is called the cruising class. More than a few regattas now have a cruising class which allows boats with cruising amenities to compete against each other. There is a cruising class in both MAC races and in a lot of other regattas. Even here on Lake Erie, there is a cruising class in the Interclub Cruise, Falcon Cup, ILYA Bay Week, Mills Race. All major events. Maybe you would be better served promoting participation in the cruising classes rather than reshaping PHRF.

Andrew Troup ** May 18, 2010, 6:52 PM Post #10 of 27 (4725 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply <<Do you expect to play guitar like Clapton the first week you pick up the instrument? Do you expect to shoot hoops like MJ right out of the gate?>> Well, you don't, and I don't, but maybe we haven't had the benefit of having our self esteem 'built' by being brought up on endless super-sized helpings of how marvellous we were, for being able to do very ordinary things Most kids are probably not stupid enough to believe all that rubbish, but perhaps it does make some of the more thoughtful ones quite insecure ("why am I getting so much empty reassurance - clearly they're worried about me - is it possible I really am empty?") and having low robustness for not measuring up in the early phases of a new activity is, I would think, a classic symptom of insecurity. If we pander to adult insecurities, we might just be prolonging the treatment which led to, or amplified, the precursor insecurities in childhood.

sharpesaw * May 18, 2010, 9:33 PM Post #11 of 27 (4709 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Thanks Bill There are some "Mommas" who are pretty frustrated that the industry only markets cruising boats with average to lousy performance (particularly offshore on a dark night), too many pokey cabins, undersized winches, and just too much "stuff". What makes a good cruising yacht in my view? A light, composite hull with good all round performance and stability, a little more topsides and cockpit protection, a cutter rig, asymmetric running sails, a fully battened main, oversized deck gear (perhaps even a pedestal grinder linked to self tailers), 2 comfortable double bunks, a pipe cot watch berth, big fridge and galley, a lifting keel, headroom and shower you can turn round in. You can get cruisers galore, but a cruising boat for racing sailors, some of whom are women and all of whom need a bit more mechanical assistance and comfort than they did when they were younger is very rare. Greg Elliott from NZ gets closest with his 16 metre Tourer but we can't afford one yet! Pip Sawyer Fremantle

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:47 PM Post #12 of 27 (4566 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From David Munge: Many years ago Colin Mudie and Patrick Ellam sailed a tiny 18-20 foot home built boat called Sopranino across the Atlantic from the UK to the US. It was a fantastic adventure. In the subsequent book, it was either Patrick or Colin that said you could throw a bottle in the sea and given the right wind direction it would reach the other side of the Atlantic. It would, however, smash on the shore when it arrived (it, the danger is not the sea, for a well found boat, but the shore). Jessica is still a very young lady, and after having had a fantastic adventure, she now needs to navigate the much more dangerous shore as she lands and meets the land sharks waiting for her.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:47 PM Post #13 of 27 (4565 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Alfred Poor: Don Finkle’s piece on handicapping rules is interesting (in Scuttlebutt 3088) but I think misses the point. Sailboat racing seems to want to find a “Handicapper General” (tip of the cap to Vonnegut) approach that magically gives everyone an equal chance to win. If that’s what you want, then just roll dice at the bar and don’t even bother going out on the water. If the point is to measure your performance against others, then it makes sense that some people will typically win and others will typically be at the bottom of the standings. If those at the bottom get discouraged and quit, they’re not getting enough from the experience aside from winning to keep them going. But don’t expect to have an even chance of winning; I can’t think of a single professional sport where there’s one player or team who isn’t expected to do better than the others. My late father spent many years working on sailing’s handicapping rules where he was interested in not only having fair ratings but also in having ratings that discouraged unsafe boats. We spent hours debating what was “fair” and how to accurately predict and weigh a boat’s performance based on its design. In the end, I am left holding the following position: If you want to race in a mixed fleet, accept that the human and mechanical components are a system, and the boat can provide an advantage, no matter what the handicap system is. And if you don’t want the boat to figure into the competition, race one-design: preferably where you swap boats between races. Even then, some sailors will be consistently better than others. And that’s the hard truth about competition, not just for sailing but for all sorts of competition.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:47 PM Post #14 of 27 (4564 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Jim Jaeschke, South Shore Yacht Club: Some years ago, I was the official fleet scorer and measurer for the MORC fleet in Milwaukee, WI. I was constantly bombarded with complaints about ratings. Many claims were made about how poorly the boat was measured and how unfair the rules were. After several years of this, I hit on the idea of adding another column to the race result sheet. This column was the rating that a boat would have to have to tie the first place boat. I now had ammunition when someone came up to me with a complaint. Together we would look at the race results and find the rating that this boat would have had to have to tie the first place boat. Generally it was well above even what the complainer thought was realistic. I can remember one case when the rating for a 30' boat would have had to be one for a 20' boat. The owners comment is not printable. The moral of this story was that the rating system helps, but you still have to sail the boat well and be in the right place at the right time to win a race. I am also the scorer for the Wednesday Night South Shore Social Sailing series. This is supposedly a "FUN" race, but the competition gets pretty intense. We have a rating system that starts at 1.15 times the base PHRF handicap for the boat and is adjusted for each race based on the performance of the boat in the previous race. It can change at maximum of -4% for top boats and 4% for the last place boats for the next race with proportional amounts in between. Ratings can be reduced any amount to include negative ratings. There is a limit of 30% on the maximum amount the rating can be adjusted upward. What we have found through the years, is that we tend to have a cluster boats that finish in the top and the bottom boats seem remain in the bottom even though the ratings are adjusted. I experimented with the system and found that we would have to allow the ratings to change at least a maximum of 7% each race and remove the top rating limit before the bottom boats started to finish in the top. Some of the ratings for boats new to racing were quite high. I have pointed out this to the fleet, but so far we have not changed the system. Again, the moral of this story was that the rating system helps, but you still have to sail the boat well and be in the right place at the right time.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:48 PM Post #15 of 27 (4563 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Colin Mann, Lunenburg Yacht Club, Nova Scotia: At our small yacht club we have used an individual boat handicapping system, handicapping both skipper/crew and boat performance, for our club racing for more than 10 years. This system encourages participation, spreads the trophies around, and levels the field a bit, even for those that don't have impeccably prepared boats, new sails, or as much experience. This has served us well at the club level as a modification of the regional PHRF system (or its local predecessor - ASPN - a version of PHRF TOT). It keeps the less experienced interested and challenges those who are more experienced. Of course, as soon as sailors go off to area regattas or competition against other clubs, the PHRF-NS ratings apply. In case the system is of use or interest to anyone, it can be found at: http://www.lyc.ns.ca/racing/racing2009/LYC_Handicap_System.htm Last year's results for our small fleet showing the implementation can be found at: http://www.lyc.ns.ca/racing/racing2010/LYC_Handicaps_End2009.htm

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:48 PM Post #16 of 27 (4562 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Derek Bouwer: Handicapping will always create problems be it PHRF, IRC, etc. This is one reason why racers like class racing as the first over the line is the winner. Handicapping will always come down to the dimensions of the boat and the sails it can carry! The next part is how efficiently the helm pushes the water, it generates in front of it, out of the way. You can buy the fastest boat on earth; if sailed badly it will be beaten by the slowest boat on earth. You cannot handicap a crew member as how would this person be rated - by hours on the water racing? I know people who have sailed for years and can still not tell me where the wind is coming from. It's strange through, as the more you race, the more you sail, practice and the more you steal with your eyes, the better you become! And the further up the fleet you finish. Handicaps are there to level the playing field between different designed boats, not the help bad sailor win!

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:48 PM Post #17 of 27 (4561 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Warren Nethercote: Many years ago I sailed at Rickmansworth SC in the UK. 'Ricky' is one of many gravel-pit based clubs north of London, and at the time was strict in allowing only two classes of boats on its waters (the club owned the site): Fireflies and International 14s. We raced one-design of course, but there was also an embedded handicap system based on individual performance (skipper, effectively), so that at season's end there were not only prizes for the top dogs, but also those who improved. The system worked well because lots of people got engraved beer mugs. This is not quite the same as allowing personal handicaps within a boat handicapping system. People wail loudly enough about their boat's handicap without adding a personal perspective to it

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:49 PM Post #18 of 27 (4560 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Matthew Reid While it is discouraging to start a new sport and end up at the bottom of the pile time and again, I am seeing the typical 'instant gratification syndrome' that is so prevalent in today's society rear its ugly head. A more realistic expectation would be that it will take some years to work your way up the ladder of rankings and skill sets. This learning curve slope can be made steeper by those willing to commit to TOW (time on the water), along with proper coaching and training. All sports have coaches and or lessons. It is unrealistic to think that one could jump in the pool with Olympians and swim at their level immediately, if ever. I am not suggesting that you have to pay 'X' dues to make it to the top, but you do have to think and act like the best to beat the best. Personal fitness, boat preparation and crew training and dynamics all contribute to a winning team. Those that have been at it the longest are usually the best prepared, on and off the water. It is a shame and slightly insulting, I think, to those on the podium that someone can correct over them by being less prepared and less skilled. Sailors are more than willing, usually, to share knowledge and skills. It is incumbent on those breaking into the game to understand the rules, know the players and then compete accordingly. A final thought...instead of racing to beat the other teams, use your rankings as a personal team benchmark for your improvement. That is to say, it is irrelevant how you did at the end of the day compared to the other teams as long as you, as a team, improved. Sooner or later, you will be on the podium, holding your trophy high. Sailing well as a team can be the most gratifying feeling one can have. I have noticed that you can win but be really dissatisfied with the day because the crew did poorly and communication between your mates was terrible. On the other hand, you can place towards the bottom but be elated by a fantastic showing by the entire team.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:49 PM Post #19 of 27 (4559 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Paul Kamen, Berkeley, CA: Several years ago we tried adding a golf style handicap to our popular Friday Night Races, and found that we had far too much of a moving target to make it work. The fleet changes too much over the season, with new boats coming in and old boats taking breaks, or upgrading sails or bottom jobs. More to the point, you can’t rate the sailors if the crew pool is always moving around. The great sailor that helps one boat win on one week might be on a different boat the next week. This suggested a totally new approach to performance handicapping: Score the crews (in addition to the boats). Here’s how it works: Each participating individual crew person submits a form that indicates which boat they sailed on each week. This info is added to the race results database. Every few weeks, we perform a correlation analysis to see which crew tends to make boats finish above their average, and by how much, and which crew have the opposite effect. By the end of the season we’ll have the crew ranked by their effect on finish position. Results are published. There’s a big perpetual trophy and ultimate bragging rights for the winner. This has the very desirable side effect of encouraging the best crew to hop aboard some of the slowest boats, for the maximum increase in their personal crew scores.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:49 PM Post #20 of 27 (4558 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Dave Hoy, Camden, Maine: Having recently suggested combining PHRF with a type of golf handicap for in-harbor weekly evening racing that doesn't quite work with PHRF alone, I was amazed to find out how determined and uncompromising the leaders were for any suggestion of coupling boat capabilities with personal capabilities. The effort was prompted to try to find and encourage new participants. I believe a local handicap system beginning with the PHRF value, may be successfully developed by averaging those results from a meaningful number of races to determine average order of finish, divide the fleet in half, retain those in the middle, adjust, then, the PHRF value from first to last to within one minute corrected time by reassigning the PHRF value plus or minus from the center boat, accelerating according to time (distance) from the center in small increments, to stay within the one minute corrected time from top to bottom. Those values can then be used until it becomes obvious that subsequent adjustment is needed. This, I feel, respects the leaders but makes them have to sail a bit harder; and, encourages those behind to enjoy the possibility of moving up.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:49 PM Post #21 of 27 (4557 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Jim Durden: Boats that have established ratings have "earned" them and therefore "newbies" should not be given "gifts" just for the sake of getting more boats on the line. This will just agitate an already sensitive aspect of handicapping boats. One of the historical problems with PHRF is that it penalizes performance. If a dedicated skipper and crew practice a lot, and get better results in the process, someone goes after their rating and it usually gets a hit. Not only is this extremely frustrating for the hard working skipper and crew, it is one of the reasons stunting the growth of PHRF. A lot of these dedicated sailors sell their PHRF boat and move into one-design where they are praised for their hard work and improved performance, (and have a lot more fun in the process). What PHRF desperately needs to do is support their "fleets" by hosting free "performance" workshops with the local Pros as guest speakers. While you might not be able to get them out on your boat in a regatta, you can at least get valuable tips and tricks on how to keep from being last in your class. Unfortunately PHRF sailors are not always familiar with all the nuances of campaigning a race boat that are the basics in a successful one-design sailors arsenal. When was the last time you heard of a winning PHRF sailor sharing his/her knowledge with their fleet? There seems to be a built-in excuse that obviates the dissimilarities in the boats. The well-respected Pro can break down the dissimilarities into taylor made explanations of how the "basics" are universal to all boats. They can give hope to a skipper that has grown to believe his/her boat only performs well in certain conditions and educate without insulting so the skipper can gian confidence in conditions they are not usually compfortable. If PHRF wants to see growth in the sport, they need to offer more than speeding tickets.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:50 PM Post #22 of 27 (4556 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Albert Wilken: Don Finkle's story is interesting but I believe is incorrect in assuming that PHRF does not already handicap the sailor as well as the boat. In fact this problem is much worse in his home waters of Lake Ontario than in most PHRF regions due to the fact that the PHRF- Lake Ontario organization has made a conscience effort to be completely introspective and rely on data exclusively derived from racing that takes place on Lake Ontario. This 'We Know Better Than Anyone Else' attitude has led to a system that, more than most regions, rates skippers and crew due to its reliance on very thin data thus creating averages that are based on very small numbers of boats in the primarily variable winds of mostly midweek evening club events. This has gone on a long time so the problem is severe and deep seeded. Even worse is the fact that, due to ever decreasing numbers of boats that sail under the PHRF system regionally, many clubs have divisions that span upwards of one hundred seconds per mile in rating spread. Needless to say this further biases the numbers to show that in typical midweek races the bigger, higher rated boats have a distinct advantage. We won't even begin to talk about the fact that more than not the typical racer with a forty-footer tends to buy sails more regularly than the typical owner of a twenty-two footer etc etc. Suffice it to say that you really do not want to venture onto the race course to sail PHRF on Lake Ontario if your rating is about one-hundred or faster. Due to all this thin data it became obvious to PHRF-LO that bigger boats had an advantage so they decided last year to change the 'Q' factor which is one of the base multipliers in the PHRF formula. This had the effect of giving well over a minute an hour advantage to the slower boat when a rating differential of about sixty seconds a mile was involved. Needless to say this makes a mockery of the basic individual boat ratings and just compounds the serious discrepancies. The only positive I could state about PHRF-LO and its administration is it at least runs all races as time-on-time. Many of us believe any region that runs time-on-distance already has some serious problems even if their basic rating numbers are reasonable. It is long overdue that US SAILING got directly involved in this problem and hold a true North American PHRF conference with the goal of creating a proper national database and rating system that brings consistency to the many PHRF regions and eliminates much of the local bias that is so rampant in many PHRF regions.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:50 PM Post #23 of 27 (4555 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Tim Patterson: In regard to the continuing PHRF discussion, I have raced as crew for a wonderful sailor named Geordie Loveday in the Mud Head races on Wednesday nights off Groton Long Point. Geordie's boat would be an example of the lovingly restored "Classic Plastic", C&C Redwing 30. We have often done well in June and then had our handicap changed for the rest of the summer. I believe that every one of us on board Jolly Mon loves each and every race. We also feel good when they change our rating because we know it means that we have done the best we could and are being recognized for the fact that we are faster than the committee thinks we should be. We still manage to beat a lot of boats that should be able to catch us, we still have a blast, we still sail safe, we still behave like gentlemen [and gentle ladies, when we are lucky enough to have Geordie's wife or other members of the distaff side on board ]. If this is an odd situation, then others should look at whatever the Mud Heads are doing, because they run a great show with as many as 80+ boats on the line Wednesday after Wednesday, year after year.

The Publisher ***** May 19, 2010, 4:52 PM Post #24 of 27 (4551 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Scuttlebutt 3096: * From Don Finkle: In my prior comments on this subject, I floated two ideas that might be considered in the hope of improving the status quo in PHRF racing. It seems that maybe some misinterpretation has occurred here. The first is a National (or better yet, North American) PHRF rating for every boat. This would do away with some of the problems with locally-assigned ratings, which are well known and have been discussed for years. Yes, I realize that there are some areas where the wind conditions are abnormally light or heavy, but this is a solvable problem too. The North American rating system could assign more than one rating to each design, light and heavy air numbers for example, to be used by local authorities if they felt appropriate. It is time we stopped using San Francisco Bay as a reason why ratings won't work elsewhere. But that is a detail, and any system like this would obviously need to be carefully worked out. The technical expertise certainly exists to do this. The other idea, that of rating the sailors, is separate from the above concept, and would be used only for local beer-can type club-level racing. I never suggested that all PHRF racing should be about handicapping people, only that this concept might help us grow the sport at the grass-roots local level. I am not trying "dumb down" PHRF, it is the system that most of us use most of the time to race, serious or not. Yet it is hard to argue against growing the sport and creating more racing sailors who might become hooked and want to race more seriously. So we have a NA PHRF rating that we use most of the time, and on a local level a club or fleet might elect to come up with their own "golf handicap" system for the entry-level stuff. Bill Kellner mentions that I sell boats for a living...that is in any spare time left over from all the race organizing, promoting and sailing that I do. Those who know me understand that my suggestions are not about my company selling more boats. I'm more concerned with having people to race against myself. * From Seymour Dodds: Close this PHRF Thread. Rating arguments are an ancient yachting morality tale coated in ambiguous shades of gray*. For example one marine coating company offers 6 gray urethane coatings: pearl, whisper, light, kingston, medium and dark. Plus gray wannabees medium silver, bright aluminum and silver. Of course what’s really scary is this company offers only one black coating but 14 shades of white. I only bring this up because I am trying to figure out what to paint my deck. It’s a tossup between Moon Dust, Off White Revisited & San Mateo Wheat. I’m pretty sure I’ll use Matterhorn white for the hull. Wouldn’t you say rating systems are like picking a coating for your boat? Neither is very simple. Now if the diehard Buttheads need an unending blast of PHRF autoerotica, check out what yachting’s most original thinker, Jim Antrim, says about exploiting the PHRF. http://www.antrimdesign.com/articles/PHRF.html

Hypotenuse *** May 20, 2010, 4:20 AM Post #25 of 27 (4459 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply PHRF = Pin-head Racing Fleet

The Publisher ***** May 21, 2010, 9:20 AM Post #26 of 27 (4330 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply From: Jim Miller I have read with interest the Item by Don Finkle, RCR Yachts and the reply by Bill Kelner. As noted in this string there have been a large number of rating rules over the years. As a currently active IRC Measurer in Florida and Ohio every rule has its benefits. I too served for many years as a local PHRF Chairman and have been a MORC Measurer. One common thread in all the rules is that while the rule was in effect everyone thought it was the best thing available. The same was true when PHRF was first introduced. Over the years its appeal has increased due largely to the efforts of US SAILING who helps with publication of the database and the efforts of the National PHRF Committee. For those in the sail boat racing community, the idea of handicapping crew would be dismissed out of hand as stated by Bill Kellner. Given that, however, there is a case to be made for a national PHRF Rule and Handicapping System. The single biggest complaint in PHRF is how the rule is administered locally. There are plenty of cases where the “Boat of the Year” has its rating lowered for the next year. One need only look at the National Data Base to know the information is readily available. The National PHRF Committee needs to take a hard look at a National PHRF Rating System. US SAILING and National PHRF have taken the first step with a Rating Appeal Process. For the bulk of U.S. Fleets this rule doe not appear to be going away but has the potential to get better.

The Publisher ***** May 21, 2010, 9:31 AM Post #27 of 27 (4328 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] SHOULD WE BE HANDICAPPING THE BOAT OR THE PEOPLE? [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply This letter was sent to Don Finkle, who authored the original story: Another Handicapping Idea, by Frank Chiz: "Don, I read with interest the RCR e-news letter and look forward to it. Just a view point I'd like to share re: boat and skipper ratings. Years ago the Erie Yacht Club sailing fleet saw a dramatic decline in participants. This was partly due to "gung-ho" racing and the same boats winning all the time. As the number of participants dwindled, that in and of itself caused less participation...who wants to go racing when only 5 or 6 boats show up on the line. Changes were made several years ago with the creation of a "Family JAM" racing fleet open for all to participate (boat owners from other clubs and marinas). The JAM fleet has four divisions broken down according to PRFH handicap so that similarly handicapped boats race against each other. As an example, this year's A division has PRFH ratings of 6 to 122, B division 124 to 171, C division 179 to 210 and D division 189 to 240. D division also includes those skippers new to racing. Boats may be moved up or down from one division to another division at the end/beginning of the season based upon past performance. First place winners are penalized 9 seconds per mile every time they win a race, second place penalty is 6 seconds and third place penalty is 3 seconds. The penalties count for the remainder of the season. (i.e. three first places would equal 27 seconds a mile penalty) The objective to racing here in Erie PA is to be competitive but have fun!! How's this system doing??? 2008 had 55 boat entries, 2009 had 47 boat entries, and this year so far 56 boats are entered for the season. It's not unusual to have 30 to 40 boats out racing on a Wednesday evening. The JAM fleet has also acted as a feeder for the spinnaker fleet, increasing spinnaker fleet participation. Just an FYI, Frank J. Chiz"

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