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Forum Index: DISCUSSION: Dock Talk: Classification Code Debate

ms ***** May 24, 2011, 1:08 PM Post #1 of 13 (1991 views) Shortcut Classification Code Debate Log-In to Post/Reply With the never ending debate on ISAF classification heating up, I am reminded that the issue of professional vs. amateur in our sport means very different things to different people. For some - it is an issue of maintaining a level playing field where we separate part time sailors from full time sailors in the interest of fair play. To me this has always been an absurd goal. First, we have a sport that attracts the affluent and some are much more affluent than others. The notion that we can level the playing field by excluding yacht brokers but including Larry Ellison is ridiculous. Another goal of "labeling" professionals - that I am much more sympathetic to - is separating the sailors who participate to "sail" from those who participate to "sell". The corrosive effect of professionals that I have witnessed over my 45 years in the sport doesn't stem for great performance on the race course - it comes from the total commercialization of the social events that surround our sports. Twenty-five years ago, major club and regatta parties were populated with amateurs who were committed to escaping the rat race of retail culture. The relatively few maritime professionals who made the scene were largely passionate starving engineers who couldn't sell to save their lives. Today’s major regattas are dominated by search for profits and the ratio of salesmen to sailors is incredible. My last two regattas were Key West and Charleston. Both were great sailing events, BUT at Key West the talk ashore was dominated by loss of revenue for the salesmen, and I'll bet that over 50% of the boats at Charleston had a salesman aboard who was using the event to grow revenue. I am a devout capitalist, and recognize that the non-stop march of Madison Avenue is a global fact of life. However, to see commercialism invade our sport so insidiously and thoroughly has been disappointing. It is particularly corrosive in a sport where "Revenue" comes from participants rather than spectators. My fantasy solution to professionalism is for no restrictions on competition in any event, but make anyone who derives money from the sport where a green shirt with a big "4" printed front and back - on the water and at the party. Everyone has a right to make a living and I don't blame the salesmen in our sport from using every tactic at their disposal to increase revenue. But amateur sailing would benefit dramatically by forcing the commercial activity into the open. Chris Bulger

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:49 AM Post #2 of 13 (1835 views) Shortcut Re: [ms] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply From Hamish Matthew: There’s been a lot of discussion about being a professional sailor and what classifies you as such. One of the recurring points is that if you get paid or get any prize money for sailing than you are a professional sailor. I disagree with the prize money statement. I am a Group 1 sailor, who is concentrating on match racing. I pay all my own expenses and take vacation time away from my job in order to compete. Very occasionally I go to an event where there is prize money, and it is ridiculous to think that a $250 share of a $1250 purse should classify me as a professional sailor. By the same logic, if you accept prizes (rum, watches, sails, etc), or the owner/team pays your hotel, flights, gas, food or drinks you should also be classified as a professional, as all of these things have a value. I don’t work in the marine industry, don’t have any financial ties to making a boat go fast and I don’t get paid for my time on the boat. I pay 1000’s of dollars a year to sail at the highest level I can. I am an amateur. Professional means you make a living on something. Not you occasionally get a small reimbursement of the money that you have put in. It is not black and white, but like everything in our sport. Another shade of grey.

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:50 AM Post #3 of 13 (1834 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From John N. Sweeney: Regarding the ISAF Code for classifying race organizers and officials, it's shocking how far off base the answers to these two FAQs are (in Scuttlebutt 3338). In the first example, the knowledge that a race organizer or official brings to a boat absolutely enhances her performance. But that isn't the qualifying issue. The issue is whether or not that person is paid to be onboard. And in the second example, whether Group 1 or 3, a person who engages in paid work on a boat (design, rating optimization, etc.) should never be eligible to measure her for a certificate. Were these Q&A's drawn at random or with the intent of eliciting reaction? If these are exemplary of ISAF guidance it's no wonder there is great confusion and frustration in the classification system.

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:52 AM Post #4 of 13 (1833 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Craig Fletcher: After reading the ISAF classification questions I can see why those who administer sailing rival the US Government for being totally out of touch. Is the person who makes the golf clubs a pro golfer? Is the caddie? How about the greenskeeper? NO. So why are you a Group 3 (professional) if you work on a boat or deliver a boat you race on? The whole rule makes no sense. The rule need not be no more than one sentence: “If you are paid in any form to race sailboats (including prize money), you are a professional sailor.” Simple. If you’re not paid to race sailboats you are an amateur.

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:52 AM Post #5 of 13 (1831 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Jim Champ: Craig Fletcher wrote in Scuttlebutt 3342 that the ISAF Classification system be simplified to state that "If you are paid in any form to race sailboats (including prize money), you are a professional sailor." But in the days when sailing was an amateur sport with no professionals allowed at all, there were an amazing number of "sailmakers" who never seemed to go into a sail loft and spent an awful lot of time sailing, as amateurs, on boats which by some strange coincidence had complete inventories of sails from the "sailmaker's" employer. Now you may believe that in this modern age no-one would seek to evade the rules like that for competitive advantage but I fear some of us old fogeys are rather more cynical. The reason the categories are as complex as they are is because of all the evasions that were used in those days. * From Barry Ault: Craig Fletcher and I often find ourselves on opposite sides of issues but this time he beat me to the punch - word for word. The ISAF system is moronic and designed to keep bureaucrats employed. Craig's simple rules nail it.

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:53 AM Post #6 of 13 (1830 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Bill Mais: In response to CLASSIFYING SAILMAKERS in Scuttlebutt 3342, where it said that a sailmaker that makes a sail for himself for his own boat is a Group 3, why pick on the sailmaker? What about someone who studied meteorology? What about a surfer? What about someone who just sails a lot? And don't forget the chess player with that whole strategy thing. From guessing the next wind shift, to the four move checkmate, each of them brings knowledge and skill that is utilized to improve the performance of the boat. Shouldn't they all be Group 3? Oh, and please don't leave out the rich owner - talk about an unfair advantage. The other loophole I don't understand is time. You are considered a professional on your first day of sailmaking. But two years after an entire career of sailmaking you can be reclassified to being an amateur? Fletcher is right (in SBUTT 3342) - if you get paid to sail you are a professional.

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:53 AM Post #7 of 13 (1829 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Ian Brown: In my view the ISAF classification system misses a fundamental point; it fails to distinguish between paid professional sailors, i.e. those that earn their money racing boats, and those of us that merely choose to earn a living in the marine industry. There is no distinction between the likes of me, a humble sailmaker and the likes of Russell Coutts or Terry Hutchinson. I am not sure what it is that ISAF are looking to achieve; all I know is that there is an ever increasing number of events that I find myself excluded from - not because of my ability (or lack of) but because I am labeled as Group 3. Surely that is wrong? The net result is that I find myself increasingly disillusioned with a sport which has been a major part of my life for the last 35 years.

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:54 AM Post #8 of 13 (1828 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Dean Dietrich: I sympathize with Ian Brown's lament (in Scuttlebutt 3345) that though he is a "humble sailmaker", he is grouped as a Group 3 pro with the likes of Cayard and Coutts. However, there are many pros, whether humble or not, that make their living outfitting boats they crew on with their employer's sails. This is a standard practice in the industry and, without commenting on Mr. Brown's skills, many of these sailmakers are very good sailors indeed and are often critical to the boat's success. In Mr. Brown's case, this may be unfair, but is it fair to allow one to buy talent through extravagant sail purchases? * From Paul Newell, Isle of Wight: It had been said in a Scuttlebutt letter that "if you are paid in any form to race sailboats (including prize money), you are a professional sailor.... If you're not paid to race sailboats you are an amateur." Why can't people see this as being the truth? I race my own boat having made my own sails. I have fun doing both and regularly get beaten by people who sail a better course. That doesn't make me a professional even though people come to me for advice on how to make their boat go faster. I freely give advice to anyone who asks. It's up to them to take it or ignore it. Ian Brown's letter in Scuttlebutt 3345 hits a key point Coutts and co. get paid to RACE. I don't. Coutts and co. are EXPECTED to win. I'm not. Coutts and co. earn a lot of money from racing. I don't get paid to race. So why do I have to suffer the penalty of Group 3 with all its stigma and limitations. If we are going to have to have these groups then why can't they create a group that we (the guys who make most of the sailing world happen - the unsung heroes) can be put into and still be able to race with the rest of the world. Our rule makers have made our sport one of the most complicated sports to participate in. I'm sure that one more category of sailor won't make any difference but would make so many people who work in the marine industry with no expectation of reward, other than the monthly paycheck, happy.

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:55 AM Post #9 of 13 (1827 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Clark Chapin: I observed the US SAILING Competitor Classification Committee at its meetings before it was superseded by the ISAF Sailor Classification Code. The Committee grappled with many of the same questions and situations, but one moment is etched in my mind. The Chair of the Committee, a Past-President of US SAILING, summarized their dilemma when he said, “Sail lofts must be the cleanest places in the world. They seem to hire all of these Collegiate All-American sailors to do nothing more than sweep the floors.” Unfortunately, the Code has evolved to its present state because a simpler, plainer code was so easily circumvented by boat owners who want to win and sailmakers that want to sell more sails. * From By Baldridge: With regard to professional or amateur status in sailing, I like the rules in golf. There are two ways to be a professional golfer. 1. You accept prize money, 2. You say you are a professional.

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:56 AM Post #10 of 13 (1826 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Steve Gregory: The letter by Clark Chapin in Scuttlebutt 3347 underlined the change which has occurred in professional sailing. The classification code became complicated when so many very talented sailors had worked in the various types of businesses in the marine industry. Fairly defining the jobs within a sail loft which were deemed professional took effort, and thus the classification code (and FAQs) grew long. However, the professional landscape has changed, and these very talented sailors who once worked in the marine industry are now more likely to be independent contractors that owners pay direct for their sailing services. I know that ISAF recently simplified the code and reduced the categories from three groups to two groups. But now I wonder if it should go back to three groups, with one Group 1 being amateur, Group 2 being marine industry pros, and Group 3 being sailors who get paid to sail. * From Tim Gurr: Please excuse me but I am a little confused with all this talk about Group 3 if you do, or Group whatever if you don't etc. Applying this same logic means that if you make a nice baseball bat and lots of pro ball players like to use them, does it mean that the next time you go to the park you are a pro ball player? I don't think so. I have built one or two boats over the years which some guys have used quite well and occasionally I may be asked to sail on them but somehow I just don't see myself as a pro yachtsman. Nor do I want to be. I prefer sailing with my mates. Surely the test must be if you are paid to go sailing you are professional. If you are not paid to go sailing you are not. Am I missing the point?

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:57 AM Post #11 of 13 (1825 views) Shortcut Re: [The Publisher] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply * From Roger McBride: Yes Tim, you and those saying what you said miss the point. The Professionals are getting financially rewarded indirectly much of the time. That is why the ISAF code is complicated. Note that ISAF restricts no one from racing on a boat. The classes do that. The classes do it because that is what the owners want, mainly for cost control. The number of classes with restrictions are relatively small. And Steve, Group 2 was eliminated because the classes were lumping 2 & 3 anyway. I don't have the stats, but my impression is that the classification system has actually increased the demand for the true pros. The pros by classification only are losers in this by getting shut out of some classes. Would they really be able to get on that Farr 40 or Melges 32 anyway?

The Publisher ***** May 30, 2011, 5:58 AM Post #12 of 13 (1824 views) Shortcut Re: [ms] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply DEFINING A GROUP 3 SAILOR While the marine industry has long existed, it is the emergence of paid sailors and coaches in amateur events that has changed the landscape. There is nothing in the rules of the sport that prevents a person from asking for, say, $1000 a day to crew on a boat. It is purely up to the event organizers or class administrators to determine whether they want to maintain an amateur atmosphere or not. The challenge of the ISAF Classification system is to fairly determine what types of activity warrant a sailor to be classified as Group 3 (professional), and what is permitted within the Group 1 (amateur) classification. During the past week, Scuttlebutt has provided many of the employment scenarios that exist and how they are classified. But we have yet to provide the Group 3 rule... until now: A Group 3 competitor is a competitor who, within the Qualification Period (A) Has been paid for work that includes: (i) Competing in a race; and/or (ii) Managing, training, practising, tuning, testing, maintaining or otherwise preparing a boat, its crew, sails or performance enhancing equipment for racing, and then competed on that boat, or in a team competition, in a boat of the same team; or (B) Has been paid: (i) To provide a boat or its sails; or (ii) For services in connection with providing a boat or its sails; and (iii) Then raced on that boat, or in a team competition, in a boat of the same team. However a Group 1 competitor who, as an owner of a boat, is occasionally paid a charter fee to provide that boat for a racing competition shall remain a Group 1 competitor if he/she does not steer that boat in the competition. If the competition is a team event this dispensation shall only apply if he/she does not steer any boat in the same team as the boat chartered; or (C) Has been paid for work (except coaching), in a marine business or organisation, which requires knowledge or skill: (i) That is capable of enhancing the performance of a boat in a race; and (ii) Which can be utilised by the competitor whilst on board a boat when racing; or (D) Has been paid for work that includes the coaching of (i) Any competitor, crew or team to prepare for or compete in any of the following: - The Olympic and Paralympic Sailing Competitions and Qualifying Events; - Regional Games; - America's Cup Match, Acts and Series; - Grade WC or Grade 1 Match Racing Events; - World and Continental Championships of ISAF Classes; - ISAF Events; - Global and Trans Oceanic Races; or (ii) A National, State or Provincial Team; or (iii) A Collegiate or University Team where the work is the principal paid activity of the competitor; or (E) Has been paid for allowing his or her name or likeness to be used in connection with his or her sailing performance, sail racing results or sailing reputation, for the advertising or promotion of any product or service; or (F) Has publicly identified himself or herself as a Group 3 competitor or as a professional racing sailor. Complete resource for the ISAF Sailor Classification Code: http://www.sailing.org/classification/index.php

The Publisher ***** May 31, 2011, 6:17 PM Post #13 of 13 (1756 views) Shortcut Re: [ms] Classification Code Debate [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply From Ray Tostado: I spent 15 years as an owner on the race circuit in Marina del Rey - back when even "woodies" could compete amongst the tupperwares. I recall that the birth of the pro racer was nothing less than a bitter reprisal against someone who was faster than you. That a boat had a foredeck hand who worked in a loft made that boat a "cheater". But of course that same complainer had no qualms about his buying drinks and dinner at the club for his crew. Or, loaning out his ski cabin to same. The fundamental to the argument is simply "compensation". If one gets compensation for the services of crewing then the ideal amateur status is void. Hell man, every owner wants as good a crew as he can "afford". Be it from pats on the back, or picking up a dinner tab, or passing over some twenties on the side. The underlying debate is about what percentage a crew person gets in his annual reported income with the IRS. Income from the occupation as a race boat employee. 20%, not a factor; 40%, group #1; 75%, group #2; over 75%, group #3. Or, something along those lines. Then let some JPL wizards design an algorithm to apply this into some manner of handicap profile. Just remember, racing sailboats is all about glory, unless you're in it for the cash. Did I say it right?

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