Scuttlebutt Website SCUTTLEBUTT
WEBSITE 		ForumIndex FORUM
INDEX 		Search Posts SEARCH
POSTS 		Who's Online WHO'S
ONLINE 		Log in LOG IN         

Forum Index: DISCUSSION: Dock Talk:
America's Cup & Alinghi 		Team McLube

 
 


waiknot
****

Aug 6, 2009, 12:20 AM

Post #1 of 38 (10724 views)
Shortcut
America's Cup & Alinghi Log-In to Post/Reply
Can someone please tell me what Ernesto Bertarelli and Alinghi have actually contributed to the Americas Cup.
As far as I can tell, He bought his way in by gutting Team N Z of its key staff with his oversized cheque book rather than form his own team from scratch, and in the process scuttled the opposition before they even got on the water. Once he won the cup he tried to rig the next regatta by forming a Patsy Yacht Club as Challenger of Record to give himself total control. Thankfully Team Oracle had the finances and stamina to challange Team Alinghi's manipulation of the rules. If ownership of the America's Cup is so important to Ernesto Bertarelli let him have it and he can stare at it in shame every morning. Then the rest of the yachting world can start a new series, I believe Louis Vutton would come to the party, but Ernesto please go play somewhere else.






Pat, Desert Sea
*

Sep 7, 2009, 6:25 PM

Post #2 of 38 (10587 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Now really, let's not be quite so hard on poor little Ernesto. To look at all the great things he has accomplished, look at his broader impact. With his brilliant organisation of the AC defense, and his unprecedented degradation of the International Sailing Federation, Mr. Bertarelli has given cock and dog fighting promoters, professional wrestlers, track touts, roller derby queens, panderers, pimps, pirates, solicitors, and even some politicians something about which they can feel smug and morally superior. That's no small accomplishment in the world.





waiknot
****

Sep 7, 2009, 8:31 PM

Post #3 of 38 (10583 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Pat, Desert Sea] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
I am humbled by your analysis of Ernesto's achievements and feel I may have done him a disservice in my earlier communication. However you have left out one achievment, what he has done for Sailing and Match Racing. Oh sorry my mistake, you have very astutely worked out that Ernesto is not measuring his achievements by on the water events. I on the other hand have been blinded by some romantic notion that the Americas Cup involves water, sailors and Boats racing.





WarmBreezer
*

Oct 20, 2009, 4:42 AM

Post #4 of 38 (10414 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
In Reply To
the Americas Cup involves water, sailors and Boats racing.
And not Court with tons of lawyers, thanks to point that out





P. Wilson
*

Oct 21, 2009, 10:41 AM

Post #5 of 38 (10383 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Bravo Stuart Streuli and to those who have recently spoken out to get America’s Cup 33 raced – on the water!

The assertion by the GGYC under the guidance of Mr. Ehman that the rules as proposed by SNG are inadequate and/or one-sided is interesting, particularly as they were adopted by them as originally written by Mr. Ehman himself for the ’88 Cup (Cat Vs. Big Boat) when he was on the side of the defender. Secondly, the assertion that RAK is an unsafe venue for the Cup, I challenge GGYC to present a list that equals the terrorist bombings and deaths incurred by just one group in their preferred venue – Spain. The separatist/terrorist group ETA is blamed for more than 800 deaths and many more casualties, and is listed as a terrorist group by Spain, the EU & US. In fact, it was only a few weeks ago that bombs went off in Palma, summer home of King Juan Carlos. RAK not safe?

Furthermore, those bemoaning the loss of grinder jobs by Alinghi as a result of their power-assisted yacht is clearly the result of a clever ruse ignited by our friends at the GGYC. I don’t recall reading of a hue and cry when the change was made from the J’s with 30 plus crew to almost 1/3 that on the 12’s – or fewer on Mr. Ehman’s Stars & Stripes catamaran.

As for infrastructure – let’s get this straight. “In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match” which apparently they cannot, then we have three DoG races. For those races we need two racing yachts, a start boat and three inflatable buoys (start line, windward mark, wing mark), a race committee and a protest committee. I think that anyone reading his could muster those prerequisites by making a few quick phone calls to friends.

Both camps have designed and built magnificent and technologically cutting-edge yachts and have assembled the best sailing crews in the world. We have a date and a venue. We have two yachts. We have a ready, willing and eager defender to rise to the gauntlet thrown down by the Challenger. Come on GGYC - let’s get this done and enjoy the spectacle.


waiknot
****

Oct 22, 2009, 3:58 AM

Post #6 of 38 (10322 views)
Shortcut
Re: [P. Wilson] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
You know we all need to remember that none of this America's Cup soap opera in the courts would have occurred if Alinghi had not attempted to hijack the 33rd America,s Cup and have total control by setting up a patsy yacht club as challenger of record. It is also worth noting that Alinghi's patsy choice of Challenger of Record was deemed to not comply with the Dead of Gift by the New York Supreme Court, a decision Alinghi chose not to appeal.
So in conclusion I think its fair to conclude that had Alinghi accepted a challenge from an appropriate challenger we would have already enjoyed the 33rd America's Cup and would now be dreaming about the 34th, probably back here in New Zealand :)





The Publisher
*****


Oct 22, 2009, 7:38 AM

Post #7 of 38 (10287 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
From Damian Christie, Melbourne, Australia:
There is an easy way to solve the current legal confusion about whether SNG/Alinghi is entitled to defend the America's Cup in RAK or in "any other location", as stipulated in the ambiguous language of the New York Court's 7 April, 2009 Order. Just ask Justice Cahn, the man who wrote it!

Justice Cahn originally issued the Order in March 2008 before SNG had it temporarily overturned in the appellate division of the New York Supreme Court. While he may have since retired from the bench, Justice Cahn is the perfect independent witness to bring to the stand. He could explain what his intention was when he wrote the order, ie did he give the Swiss carte blanche to hold the Cup defence practically anywhere in the world, or did he mean a southern hemisphere location if the Swiss chose not to defend in Valencia? It would save hours of the court's time, spare Justice Kornreich the headache of having to glean meaning from the words in the Order and finally put the Cup back on track!

This whole legal farce has centered around what one man - George Schuyler - meant when he drafted the rules 150 years ago. Unfortunately, for the sailing world, he is no longer alive. Justice Cahn is - and in all likelihood, he would very happily answer the proper questions if he was asked! So why not USE him? From retirement, Justice Cahn must be laughing at how ludicrous this case has become!


jrb
***

Oct 27, 2009, 2:26 PM

Post #8 of 38 (10159 views)
Shortcut
Re: [The Publisher] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
RAK is out, pending a possible appeal:
http://www.nytimes.com/...a's%20cup&st=cse

Measurement issues ruling expected by week's end:
http://www.nytimes.com/...a's%20cup&st=cse





waiknot
****

Oct 30, 2009, 10:21 PM

Post #9 of 38 (10096 views)
Shortcut
Re: [jrb] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Location win to Oracle
Rudder win to Oracle
Makes it 2-0 to Oracle

3 independent experts to assist the judge with the other issues?
I think this makes it 5-0 to Oracle.

Isnt a normal America's cup series best of 7?





willbaillieu
****

Oct 31, 2009, 12:18 PM

Post #10 of 38 (10066 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
After reading Ed Baird’s ridiculous comments about the benefits of racing with an engine powering the sails, I am left dumbfounded.
Spectacular as these DoG match boats might be, they should not be racing for America’s Cup. They are making it a freak show.
Maybe Ed would like bow thrusters to assist tacking? Others have already suggested that because sails themselves are a bit inconvenient, perhaps he could get rid of the rig altogether and use propellers. Given the current state of play, why not? He could sail 0 deg angles. Fantastic!
The current farce is a blot on the history of this great event, and should be cancelled.
The rolling court cases are an embarrassment. Both sides have brought America’s Cup into disrepute.
It’s time for the rest of the sailing world to wrest control of this great event out of the hands of these two recalcitrant teams and restore it to its rightful position as the premier sailing event in the world.

Will Baillieu
Grinder
KA6 1983


waiknot
****

Oct 31, 2009, 8:18 PM

Post #11 of 38 (10038 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
While I agree with your sentiments completely, I feel the responcibility for the fiasco belongs solly with Alinghi. The terms Alinghi proposed for the 33rd regatta using its farsicile Challenger of Record were so out of step that the only solution that would bring the America's Cup back on track was litigation. Sadly when Oracle called Alinghi's bluff and challenged them with litigation Alinghi chose to fight rather than concede the obvious.


willbaillieu
****

Nov 3, 2009, 2:59 PM

Post #12 of 38 (9921 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
It always takes two to have a fight, but while the score appears stacked against Alinghi, GGYC has also done their bit for this farce by insisting on the DoG challenge in multi hulls in the first place.
Now Alinghi is going to appeal the decision about the legality of RAK as a Cup venue, so it's back to the Courts again to expose America's Cup to further public ridicule. Surely the sailing world has run out of patience.
Choosing to hold this even in some far flung corner of a stone age kingdom was always a bad idea. The Court agreed, but for the wrong reason. I would have thought that the real reason was blindingly obvious, but apparently it's all in the wording of the Deed of Gift.
To hear some of the world's greatest sailing talent spouting out the rubbish that they are paid to say by their bosses is truly sickening.
I think the only hope the rest of us have is for these stupid big multi hulls break up and sink, and the sooner the better.
Stick Coutts and Baird in a couple of dinghies and let them fight it out for America's Cup next week. They can do it here on Port Phillip if that helps. I'll supply the dinghies and the inflatable course markers.
I'm free next Thursday; we could do it then. Loser pays for lunch.
Will Baillieu
Grinder
KA6 1983





waiknot
****

Nov 3, 2009, 4:51 PM

Post #13 of 38 (9915 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
   
I like your plan for the sail off, if the mainsheat is a bit heavy for them
I can provide a couple of old 2 stroke lawnmower engines they can hook up, leave the bung out to give them some movable water ballast, it will be a great show
.
Well at least it will be on the water.

As for Oracle insisting on the multihull sail off, I thought after the original Challanger of record was thrown out Oracle offered to have a regatta like the 32nd Cup but Alinghi insisted in on the multihull as per Oracles challange?? Someone will be able to enlighten us.

As for Alinghi appealing the location rulling. I guess they had to concidering the trouble and expence they put RAK to, they couldnt exactly say sorry about that, we were wrong all the time, nevermind goodbye.


Mal
****

Nov 13, 2009, 12:27 PM

Post #14 of 38 (9752 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
The way I understand the multihull choice is that Alinghi insisted on a DOG race when SNG was not recognized by the courts as a valid club and thus not a valid challenger. At that point Ernesto as defender insisted on a DOG race likely in an attempt to scare BOR off. The Deed of Gift doesn't specify enough hull design to rule out a multi (1988) and the multi is, obviously, faster.

I saw the BOR boat sailing and at the dock last year and the pictures, even the videos don't do it justice. I'm sure that the Alinghi cat is every bit as impressive. AC 33 will indeed be a circus but what kid doesn't like a circus. Anybody got a spare room in Valincia in February?
Check Six .......Mal


willbaillieu
****

Nov 15, 2009, 1:36 PM

Post #15 of 38 (9720 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
No, you need to see the facts. Both teams have their hands dirty here.
SNG initially sought to control both sides of America's Cup as Defender and Challenger (through Spanish Club Náutico Español de Vela) The Spanish Club was ruled to be invalid. GGYC was installed as Challenger of Record in it's place.
GGYC then got nasty and hasn't let up since.
The DoG match was demanded by GGYC.
See a summary here:
http://33rd.americascup.com/multimedia/docs/2009/10/Legal_backgrounder_summary_en.pdf
and the Court rulings here:
http://33rd.americascup.com/multimedia/docs/2009/10/2009_legal_backgrounder_exhaustive_en.pdf





Mal
****

Nov 15, 2009, 4:35 PM

Post #16 of 38 (9707 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Absolutely, there are always two sides to every story and no one is smelling like a rose here. I wonder who wrote the summary in your first reference. With judgmental sounding wording like, "slammed down a hostile challenge", instead of, "challenged", and a prologue that basically just praised the wonderful job done by SNG; it seemed a bit one sided to me. I have read slightly (admittedly a WAG) more summaries blaming Ahlingi for the current state of affairs than BOR. I am in no way qualified to judge and I read English only so I tend to get a one sided view. The court summaries you referenced started in Jan of 2009. I believe the basis for the Deed match had its roots long before that. BOR was sailing their current boat before then.

Though my explanation of why it looks like it will be a cat (tri) fight on the water was grossly oversimplified; the fact is that it began by SNG's attempt to be both challanger and defender. If either side, or both, becomes intransigent; which they seemed to shortly there after: the Deed of Gift is all that's left. Unfortunate that a hoard of lawers is needed to translate plain language into something much more complex. If the Deed is controlling, however, basic physics say it will be a multihull contest unless the two parties agree on something else and it doesn't sound like BOR and SNG can agree on much of anything. I'm even starting to hear both teams talking about multi's in the Cup's future even after 33.

You are right in that I need to see the facts. Don't we all? I just wish it was that simple.
Check Six .......Mal


willbaillieu
****

Nov 15, 2009, 4:46 PM

Post #17 of 38 (9705 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Don't disagree with any of your points. I'm not promoting either side in this.
Accurate information is difficult to pin down, but it is arguable that it was SNG that provoked the whole farce by trying to take over the Challenger series through the Spanish YC.
From there, GGYC/BOR has been the aggressor. Insisting on the DoG match and challenging everything in Court. SNG's announcement of RAK as the AC33 venue only provoked them further.
I believe SNG brought this on themselves, but GGYC/BOR have also behaved with little regard for the integrity of the event.
As i have said before, maybe the best result is for the two freak boats to collide and sink.
Surely after that we could get an agreement to get back to IACC boats or some new class designed specifically for AC.


Mal
****

Nov 15, 2009, 5:04 PM

Post #18 of 38 (9703 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Indeed we do basically agree ..... except maybe for the collision which I know you said tongue in cheek. It's going to be an interesting race, however. I don't believe there has ever been anything quite like it. The troubling thing to me is the delay and the exclusion that have accompanied the controversy. The multihull aspect of it doesn't really bother me at all. The judges are going to need a faster boat.
Check Six .......Mal




willbaillieu
****

Nov 15, 2009, 5:32 PM

Post #19 of 38 (9697 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
I suppose multi hulls don't worry me so much as I am worried about these freak boats being so big that they cannot be sailed safely or efficiently by human crew, and need diesel power for the winches.

To me this is offensive. What, are we still going to have tacking or gybing duels? We used to like watching our opposition grinders "run out of gas" after 40 or so quick tacks. These boats might literally run out of gas. What will they do then?

We are talking America's Cup here, the pinnacle of "sailing", yet both sides are using diesel powered boats. It has got to be a joke?
I don't know how Ed Baird or anyone else involved in this debacle can keep a straight face when justifying diesel powered yachts in America's Cup competition.

The judges will need an airplane not a boat. These boats could be sailing at 35-40 knots.

In the early days of AC there was a requirement that boats had to sail to the America's Cup regatta on their own bottom ie across the Atlantic
I would like to see that with these ridiculous boats.


waiknot
****

Nov 15, 2009, 8:02 PM

Post #20 of 38 (9686 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Isn't this fantastic, I only wish that we could have the America's Cup on the water and the court room battles as well. Can you reseve seats in a court room?
Now I will declare the obvious and declare my dislike of Alinghi up front. My understanding is that Oracle at the time of the first challange in the courts offered to drop it if Alinghi backed down from its both, challanger and defender stance for the 33rd Cup. As for both sides having dirt on their hands, when you take on a dirty oponent you will get dirty. I still maintain that Ernesto has treated his entire America's Cup adventure like a hostile business takeover. Where he misscalculated is with Oracle the only team with the resouces and thankfully stamina to say no way. Now as I predicted he also has a problem with RAK, a $120 million problem. This could end up being the most expensive America's Cup Ernesto never gets to defend.


willbaillieu
****

Nov 16, 2009, 2:22 AM

Post #21 of 38 (9678 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Well I don't have a problem with everyone having their own point of view, but I see your problem straight away. By your own admission, you are not being objective.
Facts are facts. Believing something to be true without facts to back up your belief is really only whimsy.
Every legal action in this farce has been brought by GGYC/BOR.
OK, they might have been miffed by the original Challenger of Record choice, but once they were declared (in Court) Challenger of Record they had an opportunity to drop their legal action, shake hands with Ernesto and go racing. They chose not to do so.
The DoG match is at their insistence. They began construction of their multi hull way before SNG, who still wanted to race in IACC boats or a new design to be agreed. They forced the exclusion of all other teams.

SNG might have provoked the whole thing by an overconfident proposal to restructure the AC (although they did have agreement from the other teams) and by their choice of Challenger of Record, but GGYC/BOR has gone the legal route all the way, on every point.

Right now, the important thing is to get this stupid GGYC/BOR Deed of Gift Race (yes, it is being held entirely at GGYC/BOR's insistence) out of the way as fast as possible and get back on track for a real America's Cup.
I don't care for either team in this dispute although I have friends on both sides.
I do care for America's Cup. I held it aloft after we won in 1983 and believed we had liberated the Cup after 132 years.
In 2007, AC32 was magnificent. The sooner we get back to a competition like that the better.
Nor do I care about RAK's predicament. If they were naive enough to believe that America's Cup could be held there without agreement from the only two teams involved, they are nothing if not foolish. They chose to spend their money without any regard for this fact. What is the old saying? "a fool and his money are soon parted".
The longer GGYC/BOR draws out the legal action the more I am starting to believe that Larry really believes he can and should win America's Cup in a Court room rather than on the water.
But, I will wait to hear the facts before making a judgement.





waiknot
****

Nov 17, 2009, 12:50 AM

Post #22 of 38 (9469 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Well we at least we have one thing going for us compared to BOR & Alinghi we can discuss our differences in a good natured forum.

Yes I have declared my dislike of Alinghi, this does not stop me from being objective any more than the next person, in fact I believe I came to this conclusion by analyzing the situation objectively. This view has not being formed at a whim it is Alinghi's history and actions that brings me to this view.
As for to quote you, "Facts are facts. Believing something to be true without facts to back up your belief is really only whimsy." I would suggest selective recall and selective use of facts is whimsy and misleading. I have not bothered to recall all the facts as they are in my view general knowledge, however I should have known they were open to personal interpretation.
As for your argument that BOR are in the wrong for taking all the legal action, Alinghi are not likely to challenge their own decisions and rules now are they. Your statement also suggests that you believe taking legal action against someone who did you a wrong is not appropriate??????
Your statement that Alinghi had agreement from the other teams is most misleading, my recollection is that the other teams were not happy but felt they had little choice under the circumstances.
Now your statement that I have admitted to being unobjective is really only your opinion and does not really gel with your belief that a fact is a fact, as in this case you believe your opinion is a fact.
Saying that the deed of gift race is at GGYC/BOR's insistence once again is misleading. BOR requested Alinghi to alter the regatta rules to comply with the Deed of Gift or face this challange and court action. BOR insisting that Alinghi complies with the rules strikes me as quite reasonable, and the lack of success Alinghi appears to be having in the court tends to support BOR in this.
The alternative that you appear to support is lets just race on the water who cares if Alinghi is showing contempt for the deed of gift, and manipulating the rules to virtually ensure a victory for them as defender. Now we all know the Deed of Gift does give the defender the advantage but it would appear that the advantage wasn't quite big enough for Alinghi to feel comfortable.

Now here's a new question, Does Alinghi deserve the right to defend the Cup after all of this? and if not who should be entrusted to get the America's cup back on track.

P.S.
Are you sure you don't have a bias?





willbaillieu
****

Nov 17, 2009, 2:26 AM

Post #23 of 38 (9434 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Yes, I also enjoy the good natured discussion on this Forum. I appreciate your comments. Maybe they should get us to write the new AC protocol. I think we could have it nutted out by the morning.
As usual there's a lot of "He said...she said" in this dispute between billionaires. It's like dealing with my 2 kids (11 and 9).
Facts are that GGYC/BOR has launched 8 separate legal actions against SNG in 2 years. They have won them all.
SNG has not launched any legal actions, although they did successfully appeal the decision about the original Challenger of Record, only to have it overturned by a further legal challenge by GGYC/BOR.
GGYC even went to Court in an attempt to have SNG removed as Trustee of America's Cup.
GGYC/BOR called for the DoG match, shutting out 19 other teams which had been ready to sail in the biggest Challenger Series ever seen. Louis Vuitton didn't like what was unfolding and ended their support of the Challenger series after 25 years.
GGYC/BOR made the call on the giant multi hull challenge.
So, why is Larry so angry? What "wrong" was done to GGYC/BOR?
Is it simply that SNG wouldn't recognise them as Challenger of Record?
They had this overturned in Court, so why did GGYC/BOR not then go sailing?
The same question was asked by all the other Challengers who were then shut out. It was a reasonable question.
I admit I originally leant towards laying the blame with Alinghi for this fiasco, but the more I read the more I see a pattern of legal challenge from GGYC/BOR rather than a willingness to compete.
Maybe this is a reflection of their lack of success in AC campaigns. They flopped in AC31 in New Zealand, and they got walloped 5-1 by Luna Rossa in the AC32 semi final. Ouch, that must be a blow to the ego. The real loser here is TNZ, who were superb in AC 32 and now look like winning the Louis Vuitton Cup in Nice. They should be involved in America's Cup, but they are shut out.

But, in the end there is nothing to be gained by sheeting home blame, I just want to see a proper competition. If the only way to achieve that is to get this stupid DoG match out of the way, then so be it. Please let's get on with it.
Yes, Alinghi should defend the Cup, but the Cup should never again be subject to a DoG match. A new protocol needs to be written that ensures this situation does not arise again.
The Deed of Gift should be re-classified as a historic document of great interest and put permanently on display. It should never be used again as a part of AC protocol.
The new protocol should be written by elected Yacht Club representatives of the countries that have held or won America's Cup. England, USA, Australia, New Zealand and Switzerland.





peterbrown77
***


Nov 17, 2009, 3:32 AM

Post #24 of 38 (9414 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Willbaillieu,

Just because GGYC has had to initiate legal action - all of them - does not mean that SNG has its hands clean in this. Just the opposite - it is rare that the a party in the wrong resorts to legal action, because their malfeasance would be exposed.

The fact of the matter is that GGYC has repeatedly stated, publicly and to SNG that it would drop all legal action and return to a multi-challenger format if SNG just re-adopted the rules from AC32. It is SNG that insists on a DOG match - Butterworth himself said that "we built them, it would be silly to not race them" or words to that effect.

Bertarelli precipitated this crisis and he refuses -so far - to rectify his bad behavior. Just imagine what AC34 would look like if he prevailed!


Mal
****

Nov 17, 2009, 4:23 AM

Post #25 of 38 (9402 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Oh willbailieu; George Schuyler's ghost is probably knocking on your door right now. The longest continuously running sporting event in history; is it prudent to relegate the document that made it so to an historical curiosity?

I would have to agree with Peter in that it seems that when plenty of money is available and logical minds make the decisions; it is usually the wronged, not the wrong, that resort to the courts. There is certainly no lack of funds here though sometimes I'm not so sure of the logic. That may well not be the guiding principle but it certainly could be taken as a check in the BOR column.

As to the boats; anything new is often thought of as ridiculous. In aviation, "where's the top wing?", "those crazy jets will never catch on." and so on. Cars, trains, bathing suits; you name it. I think ridiculous would be applied liberally in 1851 if an IACC boat had been in the race around the isle. Even America herself was a bit unique and might well have been considered ridiculous by some in attendance. She certainly performed that way on that day.

How many sailors does it take to change a light bulb? Answer: three, one to change the bulb and two to talk about how good the old one was. Isn't it ironic that the "progressive", "modern", Olympics is getting rid of the multi hull and the stodgy old America's Cup will be contested in state of the art boats with multiple hulls?
Check Six .......Mal


willbaillieu
****

Nov 17, 2009, 2:46 PM

Post #26 of 38 (9158 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
George Schuyler’s Deed of Gift is indeed a remarkable historic document; no argument there.
But competition was waged for America’s Cup for some 100 years before someone got a smart lawyer to actually read it. That someone was Michael Fay of New Zealand, and the result was the embarrassing spectacle of the Jumbo yacht vs the catamaran in 1988.
Ever since then, the inadequacies of the document have been lurking; threatening to derail the event. So now here we go again.
No disrespect to that remarkable gentleman George Schuyler, but he was a fair minded sportsman not a lawyer. He could never have foreseen the feverish efforts of modern lawyers working on his document to obtain advantage. It is a short and simple document, and also a legal minefield.
I am sure George Schuyler would have been the first to object if he knew that boats with diesel powered sails would one day compete for America’s Cup, the oldest trophy in sport.
If we take the current farce to its logical conclusion, we may well see entirely remote controlled boats in the future. The Deed specifies “vessels powered by sails only”. There is no mention of humans.
I believe the Deed of Gift should be quarantined; set down as the basis of modern America’s Cup competition, with its noble intention recognised, but supported by a modern competition protocol, designed to prevent the current debacle from ever happening again. The Deed should be protected from lawyers.
There have been resolutions adopted by the Board of Trustees in the past, which attach to the original Deed. Why not adopt a new protocol in the same way?
How hard can it be to agree to a class of yacht for the competition and then allow them to compete? IACC, AC90, whatever. Compete every 2 years or every 4, or whatever can be agreed. In the past it was done, by convention, in 12 metre yachts, until Michael Fay read the Deed of Gift.
While it is tempting to lay blame on one side or the other, the simple fact is that the Deed of Gift allows too much leeway for competitors to bend the rules to suit themselves. As long as this is the modern way of thinking, the competition itself is at risk.


waiknot
****

Nov 17, 2009, 3:07 PM

Post #27 of 38 (9154 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Hi Guys,

I am really enjoying our discussion(s) to me our main point of difference is on the fine print and bits of detail. what we all have in comon is a sadness that the boats arn't racing.

Peter, well said you have stated my view/understanding with clarity.

I believe there was no option but for someone to take legal action against Alinghi. Otherwise we would have had a farce of a race on the water and the America's Cup would have faded away due to a lack of competion. Much the same as Louis Vutton pulled away due to the direction Alinghi was taking the Cup.

Willbaillieu, you are right that BOR has had limited sucess todate on the water, but you need to admire the man's passion. also under Alinghi's protocol BOR and all other teams would have been virtually gaurranted to continue having limited sucess untill they gave up.

As for the other teams, I still believe they had no option but to sit on the fence as BOR were the only participants finacially in a position to have a go at Alinghi.

My personal belief is that Oracle's big boat challange was a designed as a shock tactic to get Alinghi to pull their head in and run the 33rd regatta on the same lines as the 32nd AC with a genuine challanger of record.


waiknot
****

Nov 17, 2009, 3:13 PM

Post #28 of 38 (9153 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Willbaillieu,
I have to agree that clarification of the rules is needed, I would suport a new clarification of the original Deed of Gift taking into acount changes in technology. but we must be carefull not to disregard the origional Deed as it is the history that makes the whole America's Cup.


willbaillieu
****

Nov 18, 2009, 3:40 AM

Post #29 of 38 (9092 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
I don't see how anyone can keep trying to justify this tactic and that shock tactic, or anything else that has been done over the last two years. None of it has been done on the water. Where is Oracle's credibility? Certainly not in racing success.
As for "having a go" at Alinghi, what's wrong with beating them on the race track?
Admire Larry's passion? Oh, please! I'll take the Loyal Kiwis of TNZ any time. They will race anyone, anywhere, any time. I think if America's Cup were held on the Moon using barbed wire boats they would still turn up, ready to win, and that's a pretty big statement coming from an Australian.
Larry Ellison could do worse than take a lesson from the Kiwis, dismiss his lawyers and just get on with it. What is he worried about? That he might lose? Give me a break.
As for Ernesto, he is backed into a corner. What can he do now? He wants to race, but Larry won't go to RAK and Ernesto may not be able to get his boat out of RAK, without refunding a large lump of money to some desert Sheik who's got his nose out of joint.
The whole thing is a mess and two recalcitrant billionaires are wholly responsible.





waiknot
****

Nov 18, 2009, 2:04 PM

Post #30 of 38 (9009 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Willbailleu,
there is no doubt in my mind that you are a loyal alinghi fan and thats fine but you do need to attempt to be objective, rather have the blinkers firmly on, ernesto is backed in a corner but he backed himself into it. yes ernesto wants to race on the water but only if Ernesto can virtualy gaurantee the outcome before the race. If you would race Ernesto under those terms you are a mug. read Peter Browns coments 17 Nov it should clarify things for you.





waiknot
****

Nov 18, 2009, 5:35 PM

Post #31 of 38 (8981 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
According to Ernesto RAK is perfectly safe and whats Larry's problem. Just wondering how willing Ernesto would be to go to RAK now thats things are not so rosie. And yet he states Larry a Jew going to an Arab state should not have any concerns.

What a nice guy.


willbaillieu
****

Nov 19, 2009, 12:57 PM

Post #32 of 38 (8911 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
It is not my thread but I think it's probably time to bring it to a conclusion, or at least my part in it.
There have been varying opinions, strongly made. It's probably a pity there were not more contributors.
In my own defence, I can say I am not aligned to any team. I am first and foremost an Australian; a one time America's Cup winner. We Australians have a habit of backing the underdog in a contest. The operative word here is contest. So far in this "series" we've seen nothing from Alinghi or Oracle but court action.
I admire those that go out and win on the track, and particularly those that win against all the odds.
The facts are that Alinghi is already a two time Cup winner, and so is TNZ. New Zealanders are probably the world's most ferocious sporting competitors. They have a total population of only 3 million, yet they have world champions everywhere. Oracle has done nothing but complain.
After their performance in the last America's Cup it is a disgrace that TNZ are prevented from competing in this one.
My apparent disdain for Larry Ellison's Oracle team is probably because it has hijacked this series with money and lawyers but no particular record of sailing success. He is long on words but short on performance. I can't help feeling that if Oracle is as good as Larry Ellison would have us believe he should just go out there and race, like the Kiwis do.
Russell Coutts is arguably the greatest America's Cup sailor ever, but even with him driving Oracle's team, it is taking a bath in the Louis Vuitton Cup at the moment.
I don't believe America's Cup competition should ever have been contemplated in RAK. It was surely a joke .
I won't be labelled as a dedicated fan of any team. My admiration is reserved for those that go out and race, and particularly for those that win against all odds.
I think I have already said all I can say.


waiknot
****

Nov 19, 2009, 1:26 PM

Post #33 of 38 (8908 views)
Shortcut
Re: [willbaillieu] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Great discussing with you, and I wont label you. We all share the disapointment of the lack of on the water action. And as a kiwi its gret to hear you words about us as sports people.
New Zealand and Australia have a neat relationship, in sport we love to rib each other, but I believe we will soon back each other.

Cheers





Mal
****

Nov 19, 2009, 8:35 PM

Post #34 of 38 (8885 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Though this might fit better in a new thread; has anyone read the Notice of Race for the match? A quick read this eve has me to believe there are a few rather gaping unanswered questions there in and some rather strong language by SNG in a letter that despite even the NOR; they are totally in control of the contest.

SNG has the right to enter a boat of their choosing at the last minute while BOR is locked in to USA.

SNG's boat can be considerably larger than BOR if it has two masts.

There is room for interpretation as to what the beam of BOR's boat can be. It is surrounded by the words waterline beam vs. extreme beam and a reference to USCG measuring. I hope BOR's boat is a max of 90 feet, not just 90 at the waterline....

Specific wording is contained that an international jury will be the last word and the courts will not be a last resort.

Movable ballast seems to be still in the air. BOR is likely planning on it and SNG seems to be undecided but willing to keep a specific rule out of the NOR. Seems possible they could either use it or prevent BOR from doing so without making the decision now.

Finally in clarification letters over the NOR; SNG seemed not just evasive in answering GGYC's questions, at times they seemed vague and even flippant.

I certainly hoped the lawyers were finished but now I'm not so sure......
Check Six .......Mal




waiknot
****

Nov 20, 2009, 6:33 PM

Post #35 of 38 (8828 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Hi there, Mal.

Just had a read of the Notice of Race, From my understanding most these issues are still to be addressed by the judges panel of 3 experts. They appear to be doing a great job and should be able address any new issues if they arise in a speedy and clear manner. Judge K has in my view been very astute in the make up of, and appointment of the panel. whether you like or dislike their rulling it would be very hard to argue against it with 3 independent experienced experts advising the judge.


peterbrown77
***


Nov 23, 2009, 4:23 AM

Post #36 of 38 (8650 views)
Shortcut
Re: [waiknot] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Willbaillieu,

I have read much about how Oracle should just go race on Alinghi's terms, and that Larry Ellison essentially doesn't deserve to be on the racecourse.

But really - how much is this about Larry Ellison? That anyone would race against Alinghi and have a chance of winning is the real issue. One boat per team, and Alinghi was going to release the design rule in their own good time - presumably after they had started work on their own boat. Alinghi racing in the Challenger selection series. The jury hand-picked by Alinghi. Alinghi reserving the right to dismiss any competitor at any time for any reason. Most egregious, Alinghi being able - by selectively losing races in the challenger series - to influence and therefore essentially choose their competitor in the Cup match. Alinghi controlling both sides of the event through their patsy COR.

This is not the basis by which fair competition is fostered. And none of this is the responsibility of BMW/Oracle, Larry Ellison, or GGYC. All of these issues were created by Ernesto Bertarelli, Alinghi, and SNG - BEFORE any legal action or threats of legal action. The reason Ellison stands alone is that of all the challengers, only he has deep enough pockets to take on another billionaire.

Let's just for a moment forget everything that happened since GGYC filed its challenge, and remember another seminal moment in this debacle created by Alinghi - Louis Vuitton's abandonment of the Louis Vuitton Cup after 25 years of honorable participation. Why did Bruno Trouble and LV do this? The answer - because they refused to be associated with such underhanded tactics as Alinghi's and did not want their name dragged through the mud by Ernesto Bertarelli. It's not just Larry Ellison that thinks what Bertarelli was doing was wrong.

It's unfortunate it has taken two years plus to get the event back on the water, but it has been Alinghi that has had to be dragged, kicking and screaming the entire way, to the dock.


waiknot
****

Nov 23, 2009, 9:19 PM

Post #37 of 38 (8567 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peterbrown77] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Once again Peter it appears you are reading my mind.

The real question is not, should Larry Allison be allowed to challange, of course he should as much as i dislike the delays in racing, I thank him for his stamina.

The question possibly for a new thread is "Should Ernesto be allowed to defend the america's Cup or suffer the ignomy of being the first to be stripped of the America's Cup.


maltcat
*

Dec 5, 2009, 10:57 AM

Post #38 of 38 (7981 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Mal] America's Cup & Alinghi [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Just to note that there is a different perspective to all this... I see the America's Cup as a challenge that the holder issues to the "friendly nations" by way of competition to see who can come up with the best, overall production process that includes design, building, handling and promotion of same. The sailboat race is merely to decide the winner, it is for a Nation's bragging rights! Nothing less!
George Schuyler thought builders in America in 1851 had a vastly superior shape and faster hull form for the then principle mode of over sea transport, and he wanted to conclusively so prove his point. Part of this was an effort promote the American ship builders, internationally.
Try watching and appreciating the AC from that standpoint. Suddenly the legal aspect becomes critical: "it's the rules...." that are sooo important. The same applies to the design, holding together a disparate team, even keeping the wives of the team members all pulling together. And finally, the publicity: no one could top "Flicker is quicker!" A winner! See the BIG picture.... Evaluate accordingly.


Viewing the Forums: No members and 801 guests
 
 


Search for (options) Contact Forum Forum FAQS Markup Tags Forum Rules