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Forum Index: DISCUSSION: Dock Talk:
34th Cup in SF in Multihulls 		Team McLube

 
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EaglesPDX
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Feb 20, 2010, 12:10 PM

Post #41 of 66 (15143 views)
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Re: [rt_/)] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
In a Sailing World interview at Valencia after Race 1, Mitch Booth explains why multihulls should be the AC boats

http://www.sailingworld.com/...oney-1000080427.html

"almost complete lack of tactics in AC33 was disappointing"

I think you missed the start which, as we know, is where the race is often won or lost in mono hull racing. Not the case with the biggest, fastest most technologically advanced boats where USA-17 lost start of first race badly and came back and that was after the aggressive tactics of Spitall in attacking Alinghi at speed, two huge boats coming at each at 20 knots. Tactics.

Then there's the start where Alinghi looses but comes back and wins first leg but USA17 has superior tactics and turns around them with a good navigational call. Tactics.

Coutts called it "spectacular racing", who am I to argue. When Bertarelli, Butterworth, Ellison and Coutts all agree it was the most exciting racing they ever did and all saw no reason to go BACK (and it going backwards) to monohulls, we should listen.

Peter Isler describes the most spectacular, tactical start you can have in America's Cup prior to the AC33 races.

"The most spectacular form of starting line win features the victor blasting off the line whilst the loser flounders, down speed, with a penalty owed."

We had that in BOTH of the multihull starts.



rt_/)
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Feb 20, 2010, 3:37 PM

Post #42 of 66 (15134 views)
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Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Oh, yes. "The Start". Let's forget for the moment that starting tactics can't be understood by the couch potatos who haven'r yet grasped baseball's inflield-fly rule. How do you explain to them that the boat behind is really ahead?

For starting-line dial-up drama, you want boats that turn easily. These didn't.

Maybe you mean Race 1 when B-O "won" the start, but couldn't get up to speed? Or, Race 2, when Alinghi commited a stupid entry-timing error? Basic tactics is "When ahead, cover the competition". When did that happen?

So far as the boats being technologically-advanced, let's not take the word of those with vested interest in them. Yes, the size is impressive, but they seem to have been one-trick wonders; good for straight-line speed and nothing else. Sailing 3-4 times the wind speed is impressive, but some other boats have done better. If you want pure speed, pick up any boat that can do 50 knots on one tack, can't sail on the other. Or, for technologically-advanced, an Australian or European skiff or a foiling Moth. Boats that plane upwind or have no hull in the water -- that's impressive.


EaglesPDX
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Feb 20, 2010, 4:04 PM

Post #43 of 66 (15133 views)
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Re: [rt_/)] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Not sure I'd describe Andy Green, Cam Lewis, PJ Montgomery, Coutts and Spitall as "couch potatoes". They found the starts "sensational", "jaw dropping" "fantastic".

As Mitch Booth explained in the podcast link above, the multihulls turn every bit as fast. As we saw when Spitall ran down Alinghi at 20 knots, 40 knot closing speed, both boats turned very fast at high speed. The starts were every bit the duels of any mono hull...just faster.

"So far as the boats being technologically-advanced, let's not take the word of those with vested interest in them." Chuckle...that is actually the line of the mono-hullers who have vested interest in their inventory of monohulls and mono technology.

You show up in single mast mono hull 90 feet. I'll show up in 90 foot single mast multi hull. I'll win with faster boat. From start to finish, there's just no point on which the multi hull choice doesn't win. That's why when raced under the America's Cup rules of unlimited boats, BOTH sides showed up in multihulls with the most advanced designs ever seen in America's Cup.

America's Cup was never the one-design race you imagine, even with mono hulls, the fastest boat always won.







Mal
****

Feb 21, 2010, 7:50 AM

Post #44 of 66 (15105 views)
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Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
I agree Eagles; except that I don't believe the fastest boat always won. The lack of match racing and tactics was clearly the fault of Mr Butterworth, (or Mr Barterelli). They either started ahead or took the lead in both races and elected not to cover USA 17. They found out early that their boat was slower; isn't the prime directive to stay between your trailing opposition and the mark? Particularly when they are faster.

Neither team sailed their boats well. I believe it was due to being still set in their monohull ways, being somewhat intimidated by the speed and power of these big multis and really having no idea how they would maneuver in relation to each other. Obviously not their fault; the boats were too expensive to build a trial horse. Smyth and Jobson compared it to two Super Bowl teams playing in the big match; great football players that had never played a game of football.

My point here is that placing the blame for a lack of the traditional elements of match racing on the fact that the boats are high performance multi's is misplacing that blame. Additionally all the criticism about the fragility of the boats is also just a lot of hooey. They were both designed for light air and relatively calm seas. They could have just as easily been designed for Freemantle but for one little fact: they would have been slaughtered by a boat designed for the racing conditions of Valencia. Design is still a part of the America's Cup.

All the participants, the commentators, a lot of the spectators, were really impressed with the excitement of the big multis but the sailing community has a stogy, traditional, blue blazer Capt's cap image that is somewhat deserved. If the Cup goes back to 20 degrees heel and 10 kts upwind; it will have succumbed. I'll be disappointed; I won't like it; but I'll understand and still be an avid fan of the Cup.
Check Six .......Mal




EaglesPDX
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Feb 21, 2010, 11:46 AM

Post #45 of 66 (15096 views)
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Re: [Mal] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
On BMW/Oracle Facebook site there's a video clip of Kostecki saying he wants to "burn up the Bay" in USA-17.

The common theme from the broadcasters during the race to the participants after the race was how impressed they were sailing the multi-hulls in the America's Cup. All the talk was of fantastic racing and changed minds and how much they all wanted to get back on the boats....and they are still talking about it.


dick enersen
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Feb 21, 2010, 12:30 PM

Post #46 of 66 (15095 views)
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Re: [dick enersen] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
From some of the feedback in my e-mail, it seems that a few readers were upset by my forum piece (also in Scuttlebutt 3031). I am sorry if what I wrote was a “buzz-killer” for some people, and perhaps I should have waited a while to point out the difficulties which confront bringing a traditional, Auckland/Valencia style, Cup summer to San Francisco Bay.

Because I write for a knowledgeable sailing audience, many of whom have raced here, I didn’t feel I had to list the many positive attributes of San Francisco Bay: fresh and predictable wind, relatively flat water, terrific shoreside vantage points, a large and vibrant yachting community and excellent boatyards, not to mention its beauty and the outstanding amenities of the cities and towns which surround it. Frequent World Championships and a full local racing schedule, including the annual Rolex Big Boat Series, all testify to its suitability for fleet racing in boats of all sizes.

My piece was intended to outline various, distinct, reasons why it will be very difficult to conduct a traditional, summer long, America's Cup competition on the Bay, and to stimulate discussion of those issues. The central conflict revolves around “traditional.” There is no question that it will be difficult to conduct fair racing for ACC boats, which draw 13 feet, on two, or three, three-mile-leg, windward/leeward courses for an entire summer.

The basic tenet of the Deed of Gift, however, is "mutual consent," between challenger(s) and defender. Agreement between the parties (unheard of in the 33rd edition) allows for creative alternatives to traditional Cup regattas. If there were to be mutual consent to sail the regatta in Knarrs, for example, we could have one hell of a regatta with a bare minimum of strain.

My personal feeling is that America’s Cup competition should require match racing between big, cool, sailboats which incorporate leading edge design and technology with sailing skills and physical ability.

Let those in charge take my list as a starting point and work through it. If tidal effect can be minimized, shipping and ferry conflicts avoided, room provided for a challenger elimination regatta and defender trials (or practice) and governmental cooperation assured, the event will be nothing less than spectacular.

I would like nothing more, and will help in whatever way I can to help make it happen.




Norman Davant
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Feb 21, 2010, 12:47 PM

Post #47 of 66 (15091 views)
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Re: [dick enersen] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
In response to Dick Enersen’s original forum post regarding the feasibility of holding the 34thAC in San Francisco, I have read with great interest the pros and cons of holding an America’s Cup on San Francisco Bay.

Based on what I have read there seems to be a lot of “expert” information from people that don’t spend a lot of time actually racing on San Francisco Bay.

As the tactician for the current IRC National Champion which we won on the bay and the long standing Chairman of the St. Francis Yacht Club Rolex Big Boat Series I think my perspective might have some value.

First the whole idea that the bay is not big enough is just plain nonsense. We successfully lay courses every year for multiple classes of boats, from Maxi’s to Melges 32’s, on multiple concurrently running courses, accommodating over 100 boats. The AC courses will be dictated by the type of boat selected for AC34, and by the dominant breeze pattern - which in San Francisco fairly dependably blows out of a single direction 8 months out of the year – no need to worry about plotting 3 mile courses over a 360 degree circle.

Will they be racing 90’ multihulls in AC 34? Not likely. I suspect the boats will be high performance, highly maneuverable, fully human powered boats in the 60-70’ foot range and the courses will be fairly tight to provide for the best spectator and TV experience.

Based on what I have personally experienced in racing mini-maxi’s maxi’s and TP52’s, the racing would be truly fantastic. Planing into the leeward marks at 20 plus knots trying to pick the correct gate and at the same time hoping the boys up front get the kite on the deck is just plain great racing.

Over the last 20 years we have worked very hard to forge a relationship with the Coast Guard and vessel traffic (VTS) to make racing on the bay safe and fun. We have full time communication between VTS and the RC during regattas with AIS plots for commercial traffic and our RC boats. Each knows what the other is doing and there is more than enough advance warning of intended commercial traffic and patterns to have unimpeded racing.

Are there challenges? Sure, but based on the experiences with the Moet Cup, 100 boats sailing all over the bay on two different courses during major regattas with two different starting lines not to mention literally thousands of boats that go out on fleet week there is ample proof that sailing AC34 on the bay can be done.

It will be the most exciting AC that we have ever seen, I am sure of it.






EaglesPDX
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Feb 21, 2010, 4:03 PM

Post #48 of 66 (15078 views)
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Re: [Norman Davant] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
OK...I'll compromise to fit inside the Bay. Set the longest course you can inside the bay (original was 53 miles)

We agree to single mast, sixty foot, unlimited technology. That's close to what the Deed of Gift prescribes.

Whoever can build the fastest boat that can get around island (Alcatraz instead of Wight) wins it.

But that's as small as I'd want to make the America's Cup "box".

Be fun to see Kostecki sailing US-17 around the Bay in 20 knots, testing the limits. I think it would be as compelling racing in the ocean in the same reliable 20 knots of wind. With the boats parading around SF Bay, practicing, going to and from the race course and cool accessible venue it would be just as spectacular with a spectacular boat race with the fastest boats technology could build.

Considering Ellison's comments about the Moet Cup races in SF, I suspect the Chairman is right and we'll get old fashioned mono-hulls in the Bay. Getting AC into the future and back to its roots was always a long shot. With Enerson lobbing bombs over the YC compound walls, we might still have a chance. I'll have to send him a box of cigars for lighting the fuses.





EaglesPDX
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Feb 21, 2010, 11:08 PM

Post #49 of 66 (14953 views)
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Re: [dick enersen] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Fascinating 10 minute interview with Ellison on status of the race and what he'd like to see.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/sports&id=7288971

1. In SF Bay by agreement of the teams.
2. 60 foot multihulls with soft sails screaming around SF Bay.
3. SF gives AC land somewhere and teams will build the bases.
4. City builds a marina using bonds but Ellison says it will pay back.

He's really determined to do it right and I think he totally gets it on need for fast boats in strong winds in SF Bay.

Kind of think a Larry Ellison determined to do it right is going to get the job done, right guy, right time.

Nice.


Geologyinc
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Feb 22, 2010, 4:54 AM

Post #50 of 66 (14911 views)
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Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Reading this particular blog with its 48+ replies, I think that I am beginning to hear more and more support for SF. It would appear that there may be even greater support for inside the Bay rather than outside. So if that becomes the next venue location then so be it.

As for mono-hull versus multi-hull, that will be up to the designers to decide which type of hull will provide the best advantages for the racing conditions which are anticpated to occur. May the fastest hull win!





waiknot
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Feb 22, 2010, 12:59 PM

Post #51 of 66 (14827 views)
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Re: [Geologyinc] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Hey the San Francisco yacht club hold the America's cup, it should be the first option for staging the event


Geologyinc
**

Feb 22, 2010, 1:08 PM

Post #52 of 66 (14825 views)
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Re: [waiknot] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
No opposition from here. SF Bay offers great wind conditions. Some land mass restrictions and current issues in the Bay itself, but those probably should be overcome. Just as long as it complies with the DoG and both the Challenger & Defender can reach mutually acceptable terms and conditions unlike the 33rd AC. Too many lawyers were involved in that one. The constant litigation spoiled it for all.





Weekend Warrior
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Feb 22, 2010, 2:09 PM

Post #53 of 66 (14810 views)
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Re: [Norman Davant] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Norm Davant is absolutely right! I've raced on SF bay a lot too and feel it is large enough to race the America’s Cup. The boats probably will not be gigantic multi-hulls and it would make for fantastic TV coverage. SF bay is a natural sailboat racing amphitheater with reliable wind, scenic backdrops and thousands of vantage points. The America’s Cup has lost a lot of its appeal of late and expanding on Norm’s idea just a bit I’d like to see;


1. Cost containment by going to a 70 to 90 foot one design mono hulls. R&D costs are out of control and it’s money down the drain anyway. What's wrong with a big TP 52 type boat? Given the audience numbers and the world wide economic recession, AC team sponsorship is not a cost effective advertising buy for potential sponsors which is why only billionaires seem to be interested. Lowering the cost to participate would allow more teams to engage in close, exciting racing however. OD boats would have a longer shelf life too which in turn would encourage even more teams to compete the next time. NO ONE is giving serious consideration to how to reign in the outrageous, unnecessary cost of putting together an America's Cup campaign. High costs limits participation.


2. Strict nationality rules for racing crew. Hire all the foreign coaches & trainers you want, but the guys racing the boat must be citizens of the country they represent. Look how excited Spain got about what was arguably was a Spanish boat even with ‘Senior Cutler’ onboard. This coupled with serious cost containment would mean many more national teams getting involved and be a real 'stimulus' program for professional sailors!


3. Shake up the format a bit. They raced the first one around the Isle of Wight. I’d love to see a race start at Treasure Island, sail out the Golden Gate, go around the Farallon’s 27 miles to the West and finish downwind in 20+ in front of GGYC! This would be fantastic racing.
It would be a bonanza for San Francisco, but only if the city does the right thing by immediately giving Mr. Ellison & GGYC carte blanche access to all the unused public waterfront property in San Francisco of which there is a lot. Nickle and dime them and it'll go to San Diego.
G. E. Kriese
www.OceanRacing.com





Mal
****

Feb 22, 2010, 2:32 PM

Post #54 of 66 (14807 views)
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Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Thanks for the link. I agree that Mr Ellison is the right man in the right place for the sailing in general and the Cup in particular. I hope he can keep the multihull momentum and we'll see it in the next cup races. I was really impressed with his mentioning a defender series and getting Louis Vitton back in. I am really impressed.....

Check Six .....Mal (EaglesLFI)




waiknot
****

Feb 22, 2010, 2:55 PM

Post #55 of 66 (14802 views)
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Re: [Mal] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Larry and Russell also said the other teams nead to be consulted on the issues such as the type, size of boat etc. A lesson here for Ernesto!!!

San Francisco, never had the pleasure of visiting, but they hold the cup now lets get agreement on a boat that will excell in San Francisco conditions. If we need to always sail in an ideal location and conditions, that just removes one of the factors for the tactition on board the boats to contend with and is a step towards a sterille event we will all lose interest in.


BillL
*

Feb 23, 2010, 10:03 AM

Post #56 of 66 (14689 views)
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Re: [Mal] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Go Defender Series!

(It took a lot of posts before this one showed up.)
Maybe we'll see Chevy-Revlon vs. Shelby-Microsoft vs. BMW-Oracle.





Mal
****

Feb 25, 2010, 7:11 AM

Post #57 of 66 (14430 views)
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Re: [Geologyinc] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
In reply to: "As for mono-hull versus multi-hull, that will be up to the designers to decide which type of hull will provide the best advantages for the racing conditions which are anticpated to occur. May the fastest hull win!"

I am obviously a multihull fan and as such appropriately biased. If the fastest is a consideration, the multi will win easily.

Current technology demands that the displacement rule be cheated in either of two ways; a planing hull or a very narrow hull. The righting moment provided by a multi is far superior to the mono in that it is provided by the buoyancy, lift of the large moment, narrow, opposite hull rather than a deep bulb, small moment beam and the subsequent huge weight penalty of the mono.

The shallow nature of much of the bay can even be compensated for by the multihull. The draft and thus the boards of the multi can easily be restricted by the rules with minimal effect on speed. Conversely, restricting draft severely compromises the mono.

Finally, though many would argue that a cat will cost twice what a mono would; that is vastly exaggerated. As long as a reasonable minimum weight limit and a maximum mast height is set, the cat could even bypass carbon fiber (in the hulls) and be quite cheap. This sacrifice allowed a trial horse to be built in the 1988 DoG match when DC and Co. built 2 60 foot cats when they couldn't afford one 90 foot mono to race Michael Fey's 90 foot monster (now providing shade in Aukland's AC village).

Change is tough; even I would love to see J boats compete for the Cup off Newport but time moves on and the future of sailing in general and the Cup in particular will be better served if those of us locked in the past, be it 12 meters, 24 meters or J boats would step aside and join in the speed and excitement of multihulls.

Check Six ...... Mal(EaglesLFI)




SE Benton
*

Feb 26, 2010, 10:16 AM

Post #58 of 66 (14360 views)
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Re: [EaglesPDX] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Many of the Scuttlebutt readers may be too young to remember (I hate having to say that), but not too long ago - 1985/86, Tom Blackaller had a vision for hosting the America's Cup on San Francisco Bay. Prior to the '87 Cup, Tom invited Buddy Melges team, Heart of America and the Canadian Team, Canada II (steered by Terry Neilsen) to San Francisco to train on the Bay. I recall that Canada II stayed at their training base in Victoria B.C. We had left Chicago in the fall and trained with the Canada II team in Victoria. It snowed...a lot, and the very young Heart of America team raced with Canada II in the snow. Yes, snow in Victoria - October/November 1985! I worked for the HOA team in '85-'87, and our team postcard was taken onboard the boat with our snowman...and an American flag hoisted at the end of our trademark pitchfork.

Following that training experience, Tom Blackaller invited the HOA team to sail in San Francisco. It was a great experience, and was the best preparation for the teams prior to similar conditions (sans tide) in Fremantle. Blackaller had a radically-designed boat that pressed the 12 metre rule. Some of the more astute engineering folks out there can elaborate on the details. We definitely contributed to the increase in the business lunch crowd at St. Francis YC, because on any given day, people were drawn to the waterfront to watch the racing.

The city of San Francisco was a great host, and the amount of people on both sides of the Bay who worked to make us feel at home were amazing; when TV, PR machines and big-name sponsors were not part of the AC mix. We held our own mini-AC challenge between USA-49 (Blackaller) and USA-32 (HOA ex-Defender). It was terrific. Heart of America then moved further down the coast to Santa Cruz to continue training with Canada II before shipping to Australia.

The AC has changed radically since then, but the racing on SF Bay was some of the best ever, and really tested the boats and crews. The waterfront is an excellent viewing venue. We dealt with shipping traffic, ferries, and other commercial and private boats on the Bay, but unlike today's Cup climate, we all managed to "get along."


dick enersen
**

Feb 26, 2010, 10:21 AM

Post #59 of 66 (14357 views)
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Re: [Norman Davant] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
With some due respect to my fellow club member, Norman Davant (read post here), with whom I have never quite seen eye to eye, it doesn’t take an “expert” to tell the difference between a match race regatta, think Congressional Cup*, and a fleet race regatta, such as our annual Big Boat Series*. (* both first sailed in 1965, with yours truly as a crew member in each)

Fleet racing can take place practically anywhere and, by its nature, often includes elements of luck and local knowledge, in addition to sailing skill and boat preparation. Match racing, as we now see it around the world, attempts to minimize luck and, particularly, local knowledge, as factors in its outcome.

The “360 degree circle” in my diagram represents the possibility of sailing to either of the lay lines on a single tack, and provision for a spectator fleet* which will probably show up for the races we’re discussing. (* another area in which I have some “expertise”)

Be that as it may, the venue and conduct of the 34th Cup match is up to GGYC, with the advice and consent of CNR (Club Nautico di Roma), the new Challenger of Record. If my advice were to be sought, I would suggest they:
  • Keep the momentum by announcing, very quickly, a series of preliminary regattas (formerly known as “Acts”), and naming a starting date for the next match.
  • Either propose, right away, a concept for the sort of boat intended for the next match, for example: single hull, medium displacement, no engine, no unobtanium, around 80’ LOA.
  • Or, announce that the next match will be sailed in ACC Version 6.
  • Appoint a committee of yacht designers to come up with a “box” rule for the new class, or ACC changes, by the end of October.
  • Announce the new rule and the next venue at the same time, before Jan. 1.
  • Sail the early prelims in Version 5 ACC boats. There are lots of them and they can be mobilized quickly.
  • Schedule the first prelim on San Francisco Bay, this summer, but don’t let it conflict with the Stag Cruise.
  • Design the SF prelim format as fleet racing, but include one or two days of match racing, to test the venue.
  • Schedule the following prelim in Italy.
That’s probably enough for right now, but, while I’m at it, can I point out a few things about the history of the Cup? This topic has been thoroughly covered by yachting historians, including Lawson and, more recently, Bob Fisher, but some of the facts have been pretty well trampled lately.

We use the term “America’s Cup” to refer to both the semi-ugly trophy, and the series of regattas for which America’s Cup has been the prize. Around the last event, we heard, over and over, that the “age” of the America’s Cup is 159 years, suggesting that it was “born” in 1851. In fact:
  • The trophy was made in 1848, as an off-the-shelf item, which was bought and donated to the Royal Yacht Squadron as first prize for the special 1851 edition of the Squadron’s annual race around the Isle of Wight.
  • The first regatta for which America’s Cup was the prize was sailed in 1870.
  • The “real” age, therefore, is, at this writing, either 163 or 140 years, depending on which America’s Cup we’re discussing.
I suppose it’s fair to say that the Cup (ewer, actually) became the schooner yacht AMERICA’s in 1851, but it had no further relevence until 1857, when George Schuyler named it as the perpetual trophy for the series of challenge regattas he envisioned in what we call “the Deed of Gift.” Said Deed, by the way:

  • Mandates races to be sailed on “ocean courses, free from headlands” only for DOG matches, which lack the “mutual consent” of challenger and defender, such as the one we just witnessed.
  • Makes it perfectly clear that the trophy is not “owned” by any person or organization, but is held “in trust” by the yacht club which last won the regatta for which it is named.
  • Requires the yacht club holding the trophy to conduct the next regatta, upon receipt of an appropriate challenge.
  • Specifies no time interval between events, apart from a 10 month minimum, which may be waived my mutual consent.
  • Does not, in its text or title, contain the words “America’s Cup”.
Cheers, de





Mal
****

Feb 26, 2010, 1:04 PM

Post #60 of 66 (14341 views)
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Re: [dick enersen] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Thanks Dick, good stuff there. Your premise that the history of the Cup has been, "trampled upon" may have been a little harsh, as yours was just another interpretation. I still think it customary to call the mug, ok, ewer, the America's Cup and, despite it being made earlier and formally raced for under the Deed of Gift, later; it became America's in 1851; 159 years ago. Before 1851 it was called the Royal Yacht Squadron 100 Guinea Cup or some such. If the old movie can be believed; George Schuyler was preparing to melt it down and have it made into souvenir medallions for those that sailed in 1851 and his wife saved it. How true that is, I don't know, but I understand it is really silver plate so he wouldn't have had much luck unless he did a lot more than just melt it down.

The Deed, its 3 iterations and it's legal standing never cease to amaze me. The more I know about it, the more I respect it and realize its value in protecting competition for the Cup. It is a Charitable Trust and, as such, is very difficult to circumvent unless it is by mutual agreement between challenger and defender. Though, as you said, the Deed nor the Cup itself contain the specific words, "America's Cup"; the words it does contain are close enough, "the cup won by the yacht America....". To get picky, who or what owns something they won? In this case, the yacht America. Who's? America's. Legal actions surrounding the Mercury Bay Challenge and the Golden Gate Challenge might well be viewed as an abomination but in both cases the Deed and the Cup were ultimately protected. I certainly hope the prime directive of the Deed can be remembered in the future. That being: "Friendly competition between nations", actually, "foreign countries".

With deference to your expertise in this area, though match racing may well have by convention tried to eliminate local knowledge of conditions and luck, as you intimate, that is certainly not a requirement and, as far as the course, match racing and fleet racing can easily be indistinguishable. As you know; late in a series, fleet racing often becomes match racing with the added complication of a bunch of other boats on the course. I would agree with most of your suggestions with the addition of specific provisions for a defender series with the defender not determined until very close to the Cup match.

Your choice of boats is understandable but IMHO misses a golden opportunity for the future of sailing in general and the Cup in particular. Big catamarans could add a measure of excitement lost in most Cup matches. They could be made relatively cheap with minimum weight and maximum height and draft limits. I like human power as well. I think the cats would fit match racing and the Bay well and have the potential to draw non sailors to the Cup and maybe even to sailing in general. I watched an eighteen, ok eideen, foot skiff race in the Bay a few years ago from one of the charter cats sailing out of Fisherman's Wharf and it was quite a show. Someone earlier mentioned the crowds watching the 18's at the Ronstan display at boat shows. That's the kind of interest that might well be generated by 60 foot multi's equipped with helmet cams, mics and covered by Virtual Eye as well. What could be better than the size technology and majesty of an America's Cup yacht combined with the speed and athleticism, maybe even a little of the risk, of an 18 foot skiff?

Not necessarily this much carnage but you get the drift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFlmzpAb6AQ Or check a match racing start in the same 40' cats http://www.extremesailingseriesasia.com/ and finally a nice summary with a few notible names from AC 33 http://www.extremesailingserieseurope.com/

Oh yeah, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I think the Cup absolutely magnificent.....
Check Six .......Mal




EaglesPDX
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Feb 27, 2010, 8:26 PM

Post #61 of 66 (14264 views)
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Interesting technology use in AC33 that shows why the Deed of Gift races are more fun than the purposely limited AC races of the past. The unlimited technology aspect of America's Cup from it's inception in the US schooner America to it's demonstration of unlimited technology in AC33.

“The 3M technology makes an already fast boat even faster," said Manolo Ruiz de Elvira, of the BMW ORACLE Racing design team. "Our hulls were more slippery and therefore moved more efficiently through the water than ever before. In recent editions of the Cup, the technology has been banned under the rules. But in a Deed of Gift Match, no such limitation was imposed, and the team turned to 3M to help make its trimaran as fast as possible."

http://bmworacleracingblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/making-fast-even-faster.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook


peterbrown77
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Mar 1, 2010, 5:26 PM

Post #62 of 66 (14129 views)
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"Blackaller had a radically-designed boat that pressed the 12 metre rule. Some of the more astute engineering folks out there can elaborate on the details."

Yes, Tom showed up in Fremantle with USA (US-61). She was the last 12 meter built. Her salient feature was that she had two rudders, one forward and one aft. Instead of a conventional keel, she had a bulb hung from strut amidships. The Swiss tried the same thing in 2000 with behAPpy, to less effective result. Of course, if I remember behAPpy had no central bulb, but a bulb on each rudder.

USA was very radical for the time, when everyone else was concentrating on who could put the largest wings on the keel. I have an old video from 1987, and some of the boats had wings that extended to the beam of the boat - talk about downwind drag! USA showed good straight line speed but tacking was a problem, since the rudders were creating all the lift. When she was going slow through a tack, the lift disappeared and she would make leeway until she was back up to speed. Also, according to Dennis Conner's book "Comeback", she appeared to not take boarding wave well, and looked like she leaped sideways when one would hit her. However, the benefit of the forward rudder was equivalent lift as a "conventional" keel (though none were conventional in 1986, even Courageous showed up with wings) with reduced surface area, and therefore less drag and less turbulence from the keel/hull joint.

Blackaller made it to the semi-finals of the LV Cup, but lost to Stars & Stripes 4-0. Stars & Stripes then went on to meet KZ-7, and won that 4-1, and finally Kookaburra III for a 4-0 record. It's widely accepted that any of the 4 semi-finalists could have beaten Kookaburra III (S&S, USA, Kiwi Magic, and French Kiss) though French Kiss would have had a tougher fight of it.





Mal
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Mar 14, 2010, 7:09 AM

Post #63 of 66 (12399 views)
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The match racing currently under way in Auckland for the Louis Vuitton Trophy is a fine example of how match racing is possible in a place quite similar to San Francisco Bay. Area, tides, obstacles, brisk but shore affected winds, commercial traffic, even shore viewing opportunities are all there. They are racing on a short course in the harbor rather than the Gulf as they did in former America's Cup races. I am amazed at how important winning the right side on the start is on the short course. The only possible missing link is that to say Auckland is friendly to sailing is like saying a 10 lb bag of flour makes a big biscuit. I'm not sure the same can be said of San Fran.

Coverage of the racing is quite good. Peter Lester is announcing and though no one can replace Peter Montgomery; he is quite good. He is joined by a variety of knowledgeable folks associated with the racing; often a competitor. Many of the normal America's Cup competitors are there including the AC 34 Challenger of Record and they are using just two normalized, Emerites Team New Zeland, IACC boats. They get their choice of either boat or entry side by lottery. The racing has been quite good, complete with equipment failures, crew errors, collisions, lead changes and bloody starts. Racing yesterday (13 Mar NZ time) was notable. If you check it out; be sure to watch Spithill's interview. It sounds like BOR is really headed in the right direction as to TV coverage and exciting racing but his multihull enthusiasm, though still there, seems to be waning.

Big Nor'easter blowin here on the right coast. I'm either going to do taxes or watch the racing in NZ playing the movie "Wind" during the boat changes ... Any suggestions?

Mal







EaglesPDX
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Mar 14, 2010, 9:04 PM

Post #64 of 66 (12277 views)
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I was in Auckland for the Kiwi's first defense. The races were held well offshore. Nothing like the amphitheater effect of sailing on SF Bay.

After USA-17, the plodding mono-hulls are never going to represent the best of the technology or sailing again.

The 60 multihulls that Ellison talks about in his ABC interview (see link up thread) screaming around SF Bay would be the epitome of high tech, high speed, 21st century America's Cup. The multihulls speed and relatively shallow draft are perfectly suited to the SF Bay conditions.


Mal
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Mar 15, 2010, 6:24 AM

Post #65 of 66 (12215 views)
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Interestingly enough, Eagles, I was in Auckland for the 2000 defense as well. I'm sure you know that the current races are not being held in the Gulf like in 2000 but in the harbor. I haven't gone so far as to superimpose maps but having sailed in both places; I think they might well be similar. They are even doing a lot of the photography from shore and won't use helicopters until maybe the finals.

The IACC boats are splendid. Big, powerful, complex. I have sailed an IACC boat and compared to the Catalina 387 I often sail, they are amazing. I appreciate the complexities and athleticism of match racing the big dinghys. I enjoy the racing immensely. I'm a fan; throw in an American boat and I'm a rabid fan. Having said that; compared to the IACC boat, my 18 foot beach cats are a hoot. If you've never buried a hull and ridden the trapeze around the front of the mast pulling the boat over on top of you; you don't know what you're missing. I've never sailed an 18 foot skiff but it makes my 18 foot cat look rather sedate. The Extreme 40 cat makes the 18 foot skiff look like a toy and USA 17 makes the Extreme 40 look like my beach cat. As exciting as it is to me, to the non sailor, an IACC match race is akin to watching chrome rust no matter how interesting the coverage, commentary or even the carnage is.

Though I would never expect sailing in general or the America's Cup in particular to replace NASCAR here or Formula 1 elsewhere; big multis in the Bay have the opportunity to move in that direction. They can, while respecting the basics of the Deed of Gift, go a long way toward overcoming the blue blazer billionaires in court image the Cup currently "enjoys".

The trashing the Cup got in the Mercury bay challenge in 1988 and the GGYC challenge this year was, in my opinion, excessive at the least. The loss in prestige it suffered, I think was largely the fault of the media. Even the sailing media tended to dwell on the litigation and the lack of participants and miss the huge leap in power, speed and overall technology of the boats. Classic big boat match racers cried foul at the litigation and the boats and the media piled on.....
Check Six .......Mal




EaglesPDX
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Mar 15, 2010, 7:40 AM

Post #66 of 66 (12200 views)
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Re: [Mal] 34th Cup in SF in Multihulls [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply
Sorry but America's Cup boats are plodding tanks in the universe of sailing. They are slow by design. It's like NASCAR running an antique car race vs. a CAR RACE. A few aficionados would attend, the world would pay little or no attention. This dovetails with another thread here on the decline of sailing overall and with Ellison's comments of the need to run a race that will get the interest of the general public. Public understands the biggest, fastest boats that can be built for the biggest price.

Ellison had it exactly right, 60 foot multihulls, the fastest, boats on the planet racing in the natural amphitheater of the windy SF Bay for the biggest prize in sailing.

Hopefully the eye opener that was AC33 as far as multihulls debunking (per Peter Montgomery) every myth of multihulls as America's Cup boats along with the need to attract an audience to sailing with Ellison's desire to move the AC to the 21st century can overcome the inertia of sailing's provincial past.


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