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Forum Index: DISCUSSION: Dock Talk: 33rd America's Cup - Race 1

willbaillieu **** Feb 12, 2010, 1:57 PM Post #1 of 22 (11923 views) Shortcut 33rd America's Cup - Race 1 Log-In to Post/Reply Well, it was always going to be a one sided contest, we just didn’t know which side. All the huff and puff about Harold Bennett’s conservative decision making came to nothing with the first race completed without incident in light and flat conditions. As often stated on here, the chances of AC33 being an even match were just about zero and it turns out USA is so superior as to be almost laughable. Higher and faster; much faster. I take my hat off to the BOR team. James Spithill was very aggressive at the start, attacking and winning a penalty immediately. Then he got stuck in irons on the wrong side of the line, allowing Alinghi off the hook. After seeing Alinghi off to a flying start and a 600 metre lead, the tri soon hauled them back in. The Swiss boat seemed surprisingly gluey, almost reluctant to fly. Were they towing a bucket? They looked heavier, slower and lower. If their sails really were made in the USA, as some claim, they should send them back for a refund. USA marched to weather in light conditions, overhauling, passing and leaving Alinghi way behind. It was disappointing for the contest to see such a marked difference in speed and efficiency. The downwind leg was a real surprise, with USA romping away at 28 knots in an 8 knot breeze. Alinghi was almost over the horizon at the finish. Sadly, apart from the one initial pre-start dial up, there was no match racing at all. Alinghi just continued on, as if frozen in the light, while watching USA catch and pass them. There was no blocking, no crossing and no covering. What were they thinking? Maybe they didn’t carry enough diesel to initiate a protective tacking duel? Only two tacks up near the lay line and by then USA was half a mile clear anyway. The solid wing sail tri looked spectacular. Alinghi looked ordinary, very ordinary. All we can hope for now is for a race in a falling snow to give us some spectacle at least. AC33 will end with a 2-0 USA rout after which we can all start trying to figure out how to win back public support and corporate sponsorship to America’s Cup after the fiasco of the last three years. There are about 6 remaining of the original 19 challenging syndicates who might be able to get their campaigns running again. I hope Alinghi is one of them.

Mal **** Feb 12, 2010, 6:00 PM Post #2 of 22 (11895 views) Shortcut Re: [willbaillieu] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Nice summary, thanks. While the fat lady is most definitely at the mic; there is at least one match left. It will be interesting to see what happens on the triangular course and equipment failure is always a threat. What I must add is how spectacular both boats are; 3 + times wind speed; flying one or two hulls in less than 8 kts of wind; sailing higher and faster than any other boat in those conditions; absolutely amazing. The America's Cup had it's start when revolutionary design was what determined the winner. Not taking anything away from either team's sailors; it looks like it's back to it's roots. I have cruised the net for commentary to go with the AC 33 video feed and, though going through some growing pains, would have to give the nod to the multi-hull/America's Cup experience of Randy Smyth and the general AC knowledge of Gary Jobson. I enjoyed their comments and the video was stunning. I have to say again how ironic it is that the stodgy America's Cup is being sailed in the worlds most highly developed multi's and the modern Olympics just eliminated their only cat. The sleep deprivation accompanying my 0345 get ups is definitely well worth it. I just wish the cats in my back yard didn't have a foot of snow on them. Check Six .......Mal

peterbrown77 *** Feb 12, 2010, 6:54 PM Post #3 of 22 (11888 views) Shortcut Re: [Mal] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Had to follow this on Twitter today, as I was at work during the race. Never thought I would join that website! Oh well, it at least kept me roughly informed. I think USA definitely had their foot on the brake once they reeled A5 back in and established a 300 meter lead. You don't go from 660 meters behind to 300 meters ahead in 20 minutes, and then just just maintain that for the next hour. Best to keep a short leash in those conditions, and there aren't any bonus points for reaching the top mark 10 minutes ahead instead of 3. There is untapped upwind speed in USA. I did get to watch the replay tonight, and then saw Alinghi.tv where the boat returned to the dock. Ernesto looked like like a deer in the headlights, he had this frozen grin on his face the entire time. Loick looked pissed, Brad as shifty as ever. The best quote of the news conference? Ernesto: "Again, the Cup is not over. We still have one race to go." He's already given up, he should be thinking there are TWO races to go.

brown_rb ** Feb 12, 2010, 8:50 PM Post #4 of 22 (11878 views) Shortcut Re: [peterbrown77] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply I entered the BMW Oracle competition with a delta time of 15m 20s - guess what? No they awarded it to some guy that guessed 15m even. I supported BMW Oracle because they fought for justice and fairness - writing emails to them asking for fairness seems like a waste of time, no reply at all to me requests since they announced the winner - seems fairness does not apply to others.... Why am I posting this here? Cause BMWOracle wont respond to any emails - no even a reply, I aint asking to be delcared a winner based on 15m 20s (though some might say that would be the fairest thing) - just asking to be heard. They shouldve had a better way of doing things, like people logging on/creating an account - YES _ I KNOW they got the email cause I put a delivery confirmation receipt on it... :-) Glad they creamed Alinghi, not so happy that I was screwed...

waiknot **** Feb 12, 2010, 9:57 PM Post #5 of 22 (11873 views) Shortcut Re: [peterbrown77] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply YOUR RIGHT PETER THEY SURE REELED ALINGHI IN FAST AND THEN SORT OF SAT THERE. I'M WONDERING ABOUT ALINGHI'S SUPPOSED LIGHT AIR ADVANTAGE AS THEY APPEARED TO STRUGGLE TO FLY THE WINDWARD HULL? WELL HERE IN NEW ZEALAND THE 12 HOUR TIME DIFF MADE FOR A LONG NIGHT.

genaker ** Feb 12, 2010, 10:07 PM Post #6 of 22 (11871 views) Shortcut Re: [brown_rb] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply brown_rb, I think you should sue 'em!!

brown_rb ** Feb 12, 2010, 10:19 PM Post #7 of 22 (11867 views) Shortcut Re: [genaker] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply No, they probably had thousands of emails and probably made a genuine mistake, still hope they can cream alinghi again in race 2....

Mal **** Feb 13, 2010, 5:58 AM Post #8 of 22 (11834 views) Shortcut Re: [waiknot] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply One thing that really amazed me was that for all their money and sailing experience, Ernesto had even raced cats; even before the start, they each had made one of the most common and basic errors in cat racing. Alinghi didn't allow room for a catamaran's sand barge like turn and BOR got hung in irons and more amazingly either they didn't know how to get out of it or the designers hadn't planned for that eventuality. I expected to see more of a typical beach cat start but instead saw a typical displacement hull match racing start. Peter, I might agree that Jimmy put on the brakes if this were a best of seven match but with so much on each race and the possibility of equipment failure drastically limiting speed; piling on is the order of the day. He might well have depowered just a bit to remove some of the structural risk but with so much on the line with each match; I don't think anybody is playing games. A wingie beat Alinghie Alinghie brought a cat to a DoG fight Every DoG has its day A CATastrophy Sometimes a Cat is a DoG tri, tri again? The ideal configuration is, no doubt a Cat with a wing. BOR built assuming a large crew for grinding and Alinghie built with the engine in mind and did some amazing things structurally. Judging from the wake, they may have tried too hard to cheat the 90' length and caused a less than optimum shape. Typical mono hull thought where the displacement limits are difficult to cheat. A cat with BOR hulls (not literally but that direction) would need a smaller wing and be lighter, a winner at 90'. The only real disadvantage in the cat is tacking but fast moving ballast could easily overcome that like is done by the crew on a beach cat. The real question, I suppose is what happens to the AC next. There is no doubt that it needs a cost correction to allow lots of participation but IMHO; it will be hard to go back to 8 kts when you've seen 3 times that... My vote would be about 60 feet and a minimum weight/crew/maximum height. Period ... and see what innovation and wind will do. Check Six .......Mal

peterbrown77 *** Feb 13, 2010, 9:04 AM Post #9 of 22 (11819 views) Shortcut Re: [Mal] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Mal, According to the VPP from University of Southhampton, the tri beats the cat almost always. I think it is because they can better ballast the hulls when they have three instead of two. Also, the tri's ama is smaller than the cat's and therefore the lever arm has less weight at the end of it. It sure appeared that USA had an easier time getting on one hull than did A5. Maybe it was the wing and maybe not. If you just go back to that replay where USA finally crossed the start line, and really watch it, it is really amazing. She goes from flat-footed to about 20 knots in 2 or so boat lengths! An interesting observation that I heard in some commentary, I think from Cam Lewis, is that USA is actually not that great a tri, but a bit of a kludge. She was built with the wrong amas, which had to be replaced, and originally designed as a soft-sail rig. Therefore, there is a lot more structure than a wing needs, since mast compression isn't necessary except to tighten the headstay. If she were designed at the outset as a winged tri, she would be considerably lighter and faster, and the center hull a lot less voluminous. Of course, there was space added for grinders that weren't ultimately needed. Oracle knew in San Diego that they were slow, and made a Hail Mary pass with the wing, that has obviously paid in spades. Also, I can't help but think that Ernesto is doing a disservice to his team by helming. He got lucky from a mistake by Spithill at the start, otherwise he was completely outclassed. And the finish was an embarrassment, like the Keystone Kops. That video of them returning to the dock was priceless, it looked like Loick Peyron was going to explode - he looked positively angry. Ernesto could do worse than putting Ed Baird at the helm, at least until the finish line. Baird has far more talent. If Ernesto wants to steer, he could show a little grace, as Dennis Conner did at the end of the last race in 1995. Though not the helmsman, Dennis took the defeat for himself, wife at his side, by steering the boat over the finish line so that Paul Cayard wouldn't have to be the one who lost the Cup.

Mal **** Feb 13, 2010, 9:43 AM Post #10 of 22 (11815 views) Shortcut Re: [peterbrown77] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply I think the tri beating the cat is indeed the conventional wisdom but Alinghie did some things to make their boat a tri in all respects but the draggy and heavy center hull. Conventional thinking of cat vs tri includes the need for a place for lots of crew to be and a need for the strength imparted by the center ama; two things not really necessary if the design and materials are advanced enough. BOR hadn't thought far enough outside the box in basic hull design and Alinghi not far enough out of the box in sail design. Taken to the extremes of structure and motion within the 90 foot limit; one cat like hull would be even more efficient even than two if the righting moment can be controlled by movable ballast (think a bulb 90 feet from the single hull) switching sides with the minimum width single 90 foot hull. That configuration is as unlikely now as the Alinghie's cat design would have been in 1851 but if you don't use any limits imposed by structural weight and strength: and motion; the possibilities are quite awesome and fewer hulls are better. We can easily get all the way back from mono to tri to cat and back to mono. I couldn't agree more about your comment on Ernesto's helming. Not only that but neither team, in my opinion, had enough multihull expertise on board, or it didn't speak up. The start being the prime example. The boat parked a couple of boatlengths behind the line as in a beachcat fleet race would have certainly been a better tactic for either boat. They were used to a dial up and by god they were going to do one, despite the tremendous acceleration potential of the boats, their lousy maneuvering and the very real threat of a prolonged stall, head to wind. I was sure all that experience would have known that and started accordingly.... I am somewhat a fan of Dennis's, thank you for relaying that story .... true class. Check Six .......Mal

EaglesPDX *** Feb 13, 2010, 1:36 PM Post #11 of 22 (11789 views) Shortcut Re: [willbaillieu] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply What a great race with the fastest, most high tech sail boats ever built. Hopefully we'll see a fleet of them racing around San Francisco Bay.

Mal **** Feb 13, 2010, 1:53 PM Post #12 of 22 (11785 views) Shortcut Re: [EaglesPDX] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply I am absolutely certain that will not be the case unless another legal cat fight (pun intended) ensues. Check Six .......Mal

willbaillieu **** Feb 13, 2010, 1:59 PM Post #13 of 22 (11785 views) Shortcut Re: [Mal] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply I think everyone was surprised by the sudden acceleration of the Tri at the pre-start, but the way Spithill attacked was typical of his style. Alinghi was caught flat footed like a rabbit in a spotlight. Obviously a mistake to believe that USA might be conservative in the pre-start. Bertarelli was caught out by his inexperience. Perhaps he can be considered a modern day Baron Bich. At least Alinghi was able to gybe around out of the trap and get over the line on time;lucky that the Tri was in irons. Inexperience in the pre-start is one thing but then to continue straight line sailing on Port with a big lead while your opposition climbs out to weather while catching up fast was unforgivable. It's one thing to protect the right but usually your opponent is heading left on Starboard. Surely at some stage there should have been a call to tack over and sit on top of USA. It is after all a match race. USA should have been forced to tack again and again from under a tight cover. Instead Alinghi just sailed on alone, allowing USA to climb over them unchallenged and take a huge lead. Alinghi had plenty of room to do this. Where was the match race? Watching Alinghi downwind was painful. They seemed incapable of sailing on the right pressure. Rounding up to fly a hull then sailing down again till the hull went back in. Maybe the rudders are not giving them enough control down hill? Either that or there is poor communication about sheet pressure to the helmsman. How do you teach a diesel engine to talk? I still find it hard to believe that apparent wind on the bow is only a few knots less downhill than it was going upwind. These boats sail big angles downwind. Disappointing race from a match racing point of view but an outstanding display of sailing from the big Tri. I hope Alinghi can pull something out of the fire to make the next race a better contest. Maybe they could try match racing? Unfortunately, as I saw in 1974, when one boat is clearly higher and faster than the other, the match may be over in the first few minutes of the first race.

Mal **** Feb 13, 2010, 2:35 PM Post #14 of 22 (11777 views) Shortcut Re: [willbaillieu] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply The match racing considerations are a different ball game with boats of this type. They were both still using IACC tactics. BOR even rolled in the jib while in irons. Any multi sailor knows that you need to streamline or over trim the main and trim the jib to the "wrong" side. The jib is the thing that will get you out immediately by unbalancing the boat. The rudder provides good steering in reverse on an IACC boat but those dinkey rudders on BOR don't do squat. I hope they have the right idea and the jib trim point to do so if that happens again. Incidentally no beach cat sailor was in the least surprised by that acceleration. I should check my facts but I suspect the bulb on the keel of an IACC boat weighs more than Alinghi in total. The sail area on Alinghi is probably 3 times that of an IACC boat. Acceleration of both boats is likely near the same. IACC boat to 8 and these boats to 28. Those are just my WAGs. Check Six .......Mal

EaglesPDX *** Feb 13, 2010, 2:40 PM Post #15 of 22 (11777 views) Shortcut Re: [Mal] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Slow, low tech, soooo 20th century...what a shame. It was interesting watching the race that people were watching just to see how BMW-Oracle was sailing as much as watching the race, which, like most America's Cup races was over after about 20 minutes. With BMW-Oracle, it was fascinating to watch the boat perform, the balance of wind and power to keep the hulls out of the water made it a constant drama that had people's attention. A return to the old slow tech would be a mistake but you may be right. Hopefully Ellison and Trouble are rethinking it after the powerful multihulls ran down all the pre-race misconceptions. As Cam Lewis pointed out all the negative predictions (no start line battle, boats not in the same frame, no drama) were all proven wrong and all the positive hopes proven right.

waiknot **** Feb 13, 2010, 2:45 PM Post #16 of 22 (11776 views) Shortcut Re: [willbaillieu] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply Will I may struggle with your views on legal matters but I enjoy your perspective once we got on the water. As for Alinghi covering BOR how do you do that when you can't sail the same angles and match their speed. you can tack over and try but the faster boat can just sail their own race. I believe BOR throttled back on the upwind leg to ensure they could cover. As for getting stuck in irons it reminded me of my first races in a Hobbie 16, I feel a lot better now :) You know it is very obvious that these boats were designed to answer a different question, and then altered to meet the new situation as best they could. What would each team have built if the race situation had been agreed before construction had started. Two Cats, Two Tri's or one of each? As for Ernesto helming the boat himself, as you all know I have no time for the man but if I had spent even a fraction of what he has spent I'd want to have a steer of the boat. As it is the only difference would have been the size of the losing margin.

Mal **** Feb 13, 2010, 4:08 PM Post #17 of 22 (11769 views) Shortcut Re: [willbaillieu] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply As to the failure of Alinghi to cover BOR on the upwind; do you suppose Ernesto just ignored his tactician's recommendation to do so or was Brad so preoccupied with his boss's steering that he didn't suggest it or worse yet was so intimidated that he wouldn't suggest it? There was more pressure to the right but, like you said, it's a match race not a time trial. I can't say for sure but I feel like a tacking duel would strongly favor the tri but that too is no reason not to try it. Check Six .......Mal

peterbrown77 *** Feb 13, 2010, 5:54 PM Post #18 of 22 (11763 views) Shortcut Re: [Mal] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply A tacking duel between A5 and USA would have been suicide for A5 - but their alternative was slaughter. USA came out of its first tack still doing about 12 knots, and accelerated from there. Alinghi almost stopped, and as sticky as she was, I don't think she got up to speed too quickly. The effort should have been made though. Just watching USA gain-gain-gain and not responding in the only way in which you can is almost dereliction. What was their plan? To wait for a breakdown on USA? They could have unwound their penalty immediately and still been in the lead and tried to sit on top of Spithill's wind. The outcome would have been the same, but they would have gone down fighting. I am sure Alinghi's crew are well compensated, but they are probably none too impressed with their boss's ability on the helm.

Mal **** Feb 13, 2010, 6:18 PM Post #19 of 22 (11758 views) Shortcut Re: [peterbrown77] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply But where was Mr Butterworth? I didn't understand why Alinghi didn't do the penalty right after the start either. Maybe even take another poke at BOR on the way out and delay them further.... Check Six .......Mal

Max ** Feb 13, 2010, 11:56 PM Post #20 of 22 (11744 views) Shortcut Re: [Mal] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply I agree with others' comments that BOR appeared to decide that there was no need to cover after a certain point - not only was A5 bizarrely slow, but I imagine that the wind sensor on BOR got a fair lot of backward use too. For A5, though, taking the penalty early would have seen no scope to cover BOR. As to A5 - the wind was perhaps a little higher than optimal for them, but what was with the inability to fly a hull for large parts of the race: - was it just EB's jolty helming? - do A5 have no idea how to use their ballast? - fear of breaking something? or - is there a basic design problem with the scaling up on A5?

willbaillieu **** Feb 14, 2010, 12:17 AM Post #21 of 22 (11742 views) Shortcut AC Race 2 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply I don't see how USA slowed down anywhere in Race 1. They came from 600 metres behind at the start, and got to the weather mark 1500 metres in front. They stretched this to 3500 metres on the downhill leg. There's a lot of fancy gadgets on these boats, but I bet Alinghi wish they had installed that Hindsight Meter after all. Yes, they should have taken the penalty while they were clear in front of USA and accelerating away. At that stage they had no reason to believe they wouldn't continue to pull away, so why not get the penalty out of the way while there was room? Yes, they should have tacked over and sat on top of USA, once they could see she was sailing higher. Only one weather leg, why not dump on them and make them work hard to make any gains? What's the worst that could happen? They luff you (and maybe get stuck in irons again) or they lee bow you and you have to go over. You've got to do something, anything. Make them tack, test their rig. Yes they should have had a $1000 load cell on the clew of the jib so that pressure readings could be accurately relayed to the helmsman when sailing downhill. Diesel trimmers are notoriously non-communicative. There should have been a hull flying all the way down the leg. Yes, they should have had Ed Baird or another noted match racer on the helm, at least for the start. Yes they should have dumped water ballast to get that hull flying. Hindsight is the only exact science. I hope Alinghi has a scientist on board for Race 2.

Mal **** Feb 14, 2010, 3:56 AM Post #22 of 22 (11708 views) Shortcut Re: [Max] AC Race 1 [In reply to] Log-In to Post/Reply "As to A5 - the wind was perhaps a little higher than optimal for them, but what was with the inability to fly a hull for large parts of the race: - was it just EB's jolty helming? - do A5 have no idea how to use their ballast? - fear of breaking something? or - is there a basic design problem with the scaling up on A5? " Good questions all.... There is no doubt that Alinghi's helming was less than optimum; certainly on the downwind leg. He was way over controlling between sailing deep for VMG to heating up to get the hull back out of the water. On small cats, flying a hull downwind is called the "Wild Thing". As its name would imply; it is difficult and unstable and the tendency is to over control without fast moving ballast. An A cat, for example, is lighter than it's crew, so the crew, (ballast), is hugely mobile as compared with pumped ballast. Having said that, and on the other hand, BOR's wing is almost instantly adjustable for total power and, most critically, righting moment. The individual panels along it's length are individually adjustable. The upper panels being 200 feet or so high have a huge moment arm and thus very delicate yet powerful control of righting moment. The result is that the trimmer is the busy one but his trimming for heel has little effect on total power. The result is much smoother control of keeping the windward hulls aloft while allowing the Mr Spithill concentrate on max VMG. I think it likely that Alinghi was using it's ballast quite a bit. There were several times that it was seen pouring from the flying hull. The announcers I was listening to, I have tried to listen to them all, were speculating as to whether ballast could be added while the hull was in the air and how much drag might be added with the ama in the water scooping ballast. I have no clue either but it is physically possible to add ballast obtained from either hull and put it where it is needed in the other hull. It is also possible to do so without adding significant drag. I speculate that Alinghi's thoughts on lengthening sailing waterline vs. measuring waterline to get under 90' measured and over 90' sailing might have gotten in the way of optimizing the ballast system for racing trim. I also speculate that the hull shape was compromised for the same reason. To my eye it has too much rocker and the wake looks noisy as a result...... Pure speculation on my part. The overwhelming difference in the boats is the wing. In 1988, Dennis Connor and Randy Smyth scaled down their plans for a 90 foot cat to combat Michael Fey's 90 foot monomaran. They went to a displacement rule challenged 60 feet mainly so they could afford to build a trial horse. They built one cat with a wing and one with a conventional sail. In trials, the wing beat the sail convincingly and was subsequently used in the races. The delta between the 90' monster and the little cat was even greater than the race between BOR and Alinghi. It is odd that neither syndicate went to school over that little bit of history. Or maybe they did?! I'm not one for conspiracy theories but, in hindsight, BOR could have built the first iteration just to convince Alinghi a sail was the way to go. There seems no evidence to support that theory, however. I believe the basic design problem with A5 is the sail. Low speed aerodynamics is not simple but is quite well understood and easily predictable. A sail is a terrible compromise in low speed aerodynamics. Shape is difficult to control, particularly as it pertains to righting moment while keeping power and the loads required to do so are astronomical in large sails. It has little control of slots. Even the one between jib and main is hard to control. Finally, such a thin airfoil as a sail is just cannot be as efficient as a thicker airfoil due mainly to uncontrolled flow over the back side. Having said that; Alinghi's sail is, no doubt, the pinnacle of sail development and USA's wing is rude crude and unsophisticated as wings go. The intrinsic aerodynamics of each is just overwhelmingly in favor of the wing. I am Monday morning quarterbacking here but I'm surprised Alinghi is doing as well as it is with that fact in mind. Check Six .......Mal

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